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I sing in two professional choirs under the direction of Charles Bruffy that have released seven multi-channel SACDs (all on the Chandos label, and all listed here at sa-cd.net), but I still only have a stereo system at home and long to be able to enjoy our recordings in surround, but don't want to spend thousands of dollars to do so. I'm not an audiophile, but am fairly technically proficient, in that my "day job" is being a computer systems manager.
If possible, I think I'd like to continue using my existing vintage pair of Advent 5012W speakers (on stands that angle them up slightly toward the listener--they sound very nice), although I know that the ideal for SACD surround is five matched full-range speakers. However, I'm not going for the "ideal," but rather a good compromise that will not only allow me to enjoy some of the spatial qualities of our recordings, but also act as a home theater when watching content (DVDs, Internet streams, etc.) on our Sharp Aquos LC-46SE94U HDTV. I have a couple of other Blu-ray players, but neither can do SACD.
After poking around a little, instead of buying a $500 Onkyo multi-format player, I think that perhaps a Sony BDP-S790 ($198 on Amazon) would work for me, in that I could run one HDMI out to the TV and one to an AV receiver/amp. I could sell or give away the other two Blu-ray players, consolidating the number of components. But for amplifying/distributing the sound, I'm not very far along in finding an economical solution. I saw the list of "amplifiers or AV receivers that accept DSD input" in the FAQ here, but those appear to be pretty expensive and/or outdated models. I'm hoping the forum users here might have some good suggestions of lower-priced models currently available in the US (Amazon.com availability is a plus, in that I have a Prime account).
For the other speakers (and probably a sub-woofer), I haven't done my research yet. Logistically, I'm a bit limited with placement options for the two rear speakers, in that we have a "sectional" couch in our family room that bends 90°, with half of it facing the TV and stereo speakers, so I can position the rears at the end and at the bend of the sectional. While the low frequencies on our SACDs are all produced by human voices, and therefore don't typically go below about 50 Hz (although we sing some very low notes in our Russian repertoire), the tiny rear speakers on stands might not be adequate, as I've seen that the ranges on those often cut out at about 150 Hz (of course, lows can be fed to a sub and aren't particularly directional). I'll probably purchase two rears and a center separately, and try for decent quality, but have to keep the cost down.
That's probably too much info--thanks for reading and for any suggestions about affordable equipment to allow me to enjoy surround sound--especially our choral SACDs.
David T
Arizona
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Post by seth November 24, 2012 (2 of 14)
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Hi David:
A few things:
1. You only need a Blu-ray player with two HDMI out ports if you have a 3D capable TV and an A/V receiver not cable of passing a 3D video signal through it. The dual ports allow you to send the video portion of the signal directly to your TV and the audio to the receiver. It looks like your current TV is not 3D capable, so this is all moot for you.
2. You have a few options on the A/V receiver. You could: 1) Buy a cheaper model that will accept the DSD signal from the HDMI port but immediately convert it to PCM. Some audiophiles will call that heresy, but if you have the receiver apply room correction -- which you likely will -- then the signal is getting converted to PCM anyway. And the benefits of room correction outweigh keeping the signal as pure DSD (hear comes the flames!). 2) Get a receiver that doesn't accept DSD over HDMI, but have the Blu-ray player convert the signal to PCM. That way the multi-channel signal can still be sent over HDMI. 3) Buy an an older, used receiver that has 5.1 or 7.1 analog inputs and get a Blu-ray player with 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs (so all the decoding will happen in the Blu-ray player). Such a Blu-ray player will probably cost minimum $300.
Kal, does that all sound right :)?
Sony's s590 Blu-ray player handles SACD, outputs it via HDMI as either DSD or PCM, and only costs $100. While the s590 is like $10 more expensive than the s390 and has features that you won' need, like 3D, it also has things that you will want that the s390 doesn't have, like front display and an additional USB port in the back.
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Post by Ubertrout November 24, 2012 (3 of 14)
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What Seth says is correct...you can use any A/V receiver which accepts hi-res PCM surround over HDMI (HDMI 1.3 or higher - effectively any receiver made in the past 4 years).
Likewise, you don't need 5 full-range speakers...a regular 5.1 setup with a subwoofer will be okay for listening to SACDs...the receiver will perform bass management and all that good stuff.
Many folks here are using much fancier configurations, and there are gains to be had with that approach. But it's not necessary to enjoy SACDs in MCH.
In terms of a receiver that supports DSD input/processing, I have one, and I like to use the "Pure Direct" mode which bypasses all processing and does a pure DSD signal. It's especially nice when listening in stereo, or to discs encoded in 5.1 (so there's no need for bass management - the subwoofer is already accounted for). But there are also disadvantages to using Pure Direct mode, in that room correction and bass management in the receiver are bypassed.
Short story long - any receiver which supports HDMI 1.3 (most new ones) coupled with a player which can output SACD as PCM over HDMI (essentially any modern SACD player with HDMI out) will suffice.
Further, if you have a receiver already which has analog multichannel inputs (6 RCA ports), you mmay not even need to buy a new receiver. Many players can output SACD audio via analog MCH ports, including the Oppo BDP-93. There are also older and cheaper players that can do it, such as the Sony CE-595.
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Thanks, Seth--sorry if you have to endure a little "audiophile wrath" on my behalf. :-)
I didn't know about the pass-through of the HDMI, and no, I'm not likely to need the 3D option anytime soon, so going with the Sony BDP-S590 would save me $100. However, I should have mentioned that one of my existing BR players is a Sony BDP-S370, and I had assumed that it couldn't do SACD multi-channel, but a quick search appears to show that it can? If that's the case, maybe I'm OK with using the BDP-S370 as my player for now. (My other BD player is a Sharp Aquos BDHP50, and from my searching, I'm pretty sure it can't do SACD)
...and thanks to Ubertrout as well. It appears my existing BDP-S370 can output either PCM or DSD, so that gives me some choices about handling the signal at the A/V receiver. No, my existing receiver is too old--it's a Scott A1600 from the 1980s, so it won't have the necessary multi-channel inputs.
I could still use specific suggestions as to a low-cost A/V receiver, but I realize that most of you here are probably using higher-end units.
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Post by seth November 24, 2012 (5 of 14)
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David,
You're right about the Sony BDP-S370. No need to buy a new Blu-ray player.
Without really knowing too much about the entry level receivers that Onkyo or Yamaha make, I'd imagine such a receiver by one of those two companies would get the job done. I quickly checked the manuals; each will accept DSD or hi-rez multi-channel PCM. I guess just look at receivers in your desired price range, than check the manuals online to double check that they'll do what you need them to do.
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Thanks, Seth. I'll go start doing my homework. At some point in the future, I hope to expand my SACD collection past the recordings I've sung on, and also gradually improve my audio equipment.
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Post by benvandyk November 24, 2012 (7 of 14)
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you can also look at used advent older speakers. I saw a lot of them on ebay
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Post by Ubertrout November 24, 2012 (8 of 14)
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It depends what you mean by low cost receiver...you're going to need to spend at least $300 on one, although I'm seeing Black Friday/Cyber Monday deals on decent units like the Onkyo 414 for $200.
I used an Onkyo 605 for a while as my receiver, and while it doesn't compare to high-end units, it wasn't half bad with SACD. Amazon and Newegg are both selling the current equivalent model - the 616 - for just under $350. I have a Yamaha now which I'm very happy with as well, and would recommend them.
Generally speaking, with receivers you should figure out how much you want to spend and what manufacturer you want, and then go from there.
I would note that prices on Monday are likely to be about as low as they will be all year...
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Post by Deribas November 25, 2012 (9 of 14)
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As discussed at length in the "audiophile receiver" thread recently, one of the few features that makes a lot of difference for listening to multichannel SACD in a real-world room with real-world nonidentical speakers is good quality room correction and equalization technology, such as Audyssey. I noticed a steady trickle-down of its top implementation, MultEQ XT32, into affordable receivers lately. For example, it is now found in Onkyo tx-nr818, which is going for $800s now, and wAs briefly in $600s on amazon. It used to be available only in $2000+ receivers or prepros. For a receiver, the second most desirable feature, at least for me, is having preamp outputs, so that you can have the option of of external amplifiers added over time to improve the speaker performance. Again, it is not a high-end feature, but not found in many bottom-end receiver models.
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Post by Luong November 25, 2012 (10 of 14)
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aztopdavid said:
Thanks, Seth. I'll go start doing my homework. At some point in the future, I hope to expand my SACD collection past the recordings I've sung on, and also gradually improve my audio equipment.
Congratualtion on your decision to explore Multichannel SACDs. You will have amazing repertoires to delve into, choral, orchestral, and so on. I would like to know your preference for listening position when you listen to multichannel recordings at home. For example:
1) Emulation of the choir director's position.
2) In a synthetic position where the voices are arranged in a circle around you.
3) Emulation of a good seat in the audience hall.
The majority of multichannel SACDs ( and practically all Chandos label SACDs) only give you option (3). I am just curious to know your preference as you have actually sung in those recordings. Thank you.
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