Post by canonical April 20, 2012 (311 of 535)
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jazz1 said:
At the end of the day most of these old performances still remains unsurpassed. Try to listen to the music.
I rather have Oistrakh, Rostropovich, Richter, Karajan,Jacqueline,Janet, Barbirolli etc, playing for me in good sound than a bunch of modern pasteurised musicians in superb 5 channels sound.
I completely agree.
The problem is the second part:
> Sure sonically some are better than others and there are better modern recordings but the ones I bought are all better than their redbook equivalent I have.
In the case of the Sea Pictures with Janet Baker, my old CD original is unquestionably superior to whatever they have done to it for the SACD release. Janet Baker sounds like Janet Baker on the CD ... on the re-processed, de-magnetised, de-hissed and uber processed SACD version, she sounds like her mid range was castrated. I also seem to get headaches listening to the EMI SACDs.
I've enjoyed some of the EMI Schubert lieder discs ... the first 2 in particular ... though I don't have these on CD or LP, and so am not in a position to say whether they are an improvement. The Brahms with Oistrakh SACD is a distorted mess, and even Oistrakh himself plays oddly out of tune at times ... but the latter is not really the point.
I'm not sure what to think on balance. Being cheap is not good enough ... it has to be better than the CD version it replaces. And, at least where I do have the CD (the Baker Elgar ... one of my favourite recordings) ... the new SACD version has not passed this basic test.
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Post by nucaleena April 20, 2012 (312 of 535)
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canonical said:
I completely agree.
I completely agree. Whilst its great to hear some terrific performances again, e.g. the DFD lied, I am able to compare others with their RBCD incarnations, to the new discs' disadvantage. The Brahms did give me a slight headache but the performances are excellent, as you'd expect. But the Elgar/Delius was a disappointment (recording only, not at all the great performances) cf. RBCD as was the Richer Dvorak etc.
The sound in all cases eliminates hiss but replaces it with a blanket sameness which isn't exactly alive. My case in point is the Delius choral works - always hard to decipher but positively incomprehensible and blancmange-y without more natural "lift" to the voices (and texts). I appreciate the engineer's intentions but think that in all four cases I've cited they got the balance wrong between life and presence and dynamic range, and hiss if need be, and blandness.
I don't regret buying the sets, but if EMI release any more signatures I'd want to see both 1) less interference with and processing of the master tapes and b) much better presentation, especially of any more lied or choral offerings.
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nucaleena said:
...a disappointment...as was the Richer Dvorak etc.
The sound in all cases eliminates hiss but replaces it with a blanket sameness
Yeah... Those were not technically very good recordings to begin with (the concertos by Richter), but the RBCDs are a lot worse. These are the best we've had to date (and I doubt anyone will [even want to try and] improve upon them in the future, either). Blame the original tapes, not the new engineering. You can't make more out of the materials than what they are.
Same with every other release in this series that I've heard. I don't hear any of that heavy processing and interference that you and canonical seem to refer to, in any of the discs I have (I have 20-something, incl. all the Richters, Klemperers, Schwarzkopfs, Oistrakhs). Where there's processing it's been very obviously gently done and only to remove/ameliorate obvious defects like clicks, pops, dropouts, etc., which is then good. The software for this is excellent these days. So what I hear when listening to these discs is a lot of hiss but no sameness at all; just the opposite: the new masterings have really brought out so much novel detail and nuance that I listen to these recordings as if they were entirely new to my ears. Just compare them to the GROC versions of the same, for instance: the approach is very different, and the results don't really even compare. The difference is even more striking if you juxtapose these to those old first-generation transfers from the '80s and early '90s.
PT, one happy camper
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Post by Claude April 21, 2012 (314 of 535)
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In my experience, the remastering results vary a lot. Some SACDs sound very close to the CD reissues, others sound a lot better.
So it's difficult to give a general opinion on the series
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Post by jgr April 22, 2012 (315 of 535)
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Yesterday I spent three hours with a couple of friends, one of whom has a very expensive turntable - a granite turntable and some cartridge that cost several hundred pounds, which is maintained in tip-top condition. Bill has all valve amps - which he built from kits a few years ago and it certainly has a wonderful sound through massive B&W speakers. He has just bought a Marantz SA K1 SACD player - same as mine.
We compared three LP's [ASD and SAX pressings] against the EMI SACD's - Elgar Cello Concerto/Sea Pictures. Mozart Horn Concertos - an elderly 50+ years old mono LP,and Schumann/Mendellsohn 4th Symphonies.
The Stereo LP's were all bought in 1971 and 1972 - Bill writes the dates he buys LP's CD's etc on the sleeve.
In all three cases, the SACD's are virtually indistinguishable from the LP - the recent posts about Janet Baker's voice, I and my friends simply cannot accept in direct LP and SACD comparison - is the old CD transfer too heavily manipulated? We do not possess that CD so cannot make a direct comparison. To us it is not the SACD that is over manipulated , her voice is glorious, and I heard Janet Baker in concert on several occasions over the years. The only thing that gives away the LP sound is the clicks.
The Schumann and Mendelssohn has a little more solid feel in the bass on the LP, but the treble is not so sweet - but this could be wear from playing them in the 1970's.
The Elgar LP is a little veiled compared to the SACD, but I only noticed this when listening with headphones. All in all a most revealing session for the three of us.
If there are more releases in this series - and I sincerely hope that EMI will not be put off my the negative press in SACD.net forum - I shall be taking with a 'pinch of salt' some of the posts we have had recently.
Lastly - I do hope Universal follows EMI's lead - please!
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jgr said:
In all three cases, the SACD's are virtually indistinguishable from the LP - the recent posts about Janet Baker's voice, I and my friends simply cannot accept in direct LP and SACD comparison - is the old CD transfer too heavily manipulated? We do not possess that CD so cannot make a direct comparison. To us it is not the SACD that is over manipulated , her voice is glorious, and I heard Janet Baker in concert on several occasions over the years.
I have been able to compare the old RBCD of Janet Baker with these SACD versions and find the SACD to be a better representation of Baker's voice as I remember it in the concert Hall and on LP. To me the sound is more LP-Like than the old CD transfers. I really believe the EMI engineers have done a great job with these old tapes which were a not universally perfect. Surely the whole idea of hi resolution transfers is to convey the sound of the original with as much fidelity as possible. For the most part this has been achieved. The use of Cedar and the like may be questionable but these EMI guys are experienced enough to know when that process was both necessary and beneficial. I hope there will be many more to come.
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Post by dcramer April 22, 2012 (317 of 535)
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jgr said:
In all three cases, the SACD's are virtually indistinguishable from the LP - the recent posts about Janet Baker's voice, I and my friends simply cannot accept in direct LP and SACD comparison - is the old CD transfer too heavily manipulated? We do not possess that CD so cannot make a direct comparison. To us it is not the SACD that is over manipulated , her voice is glorious, and I heard Janet Baker in concert on several occasions over the years. The only thing that gives away the LP sound is the clicks.
Interesting - I had similar results with the Elgar SACD - the only performance for which I also own an original pressing LP (I have a Garrard 401/Quad ESL/tube system. I slightly preferred the LP, but it was very close and could very likely be due to my personal preferences rather than an actual superiority.
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EMI releases continue to be done and chosen by IDIOTS. They chose DVD-Audio in the format wars, only to quit with a handful of releases. Now, they start releasing stereo discs when many surround masters are to be had.
The same idiocy as usual is in control of the disc industry.
Unfortunately, music loves are NOT the concern of the pigs who own the master tapes...
UGH
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Post by Claude April 23, 2012 (319 of 535)
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The EMI SACDs reissues were intially planned for Japan only (where multichannel is not very popular among audiophiles), and they started with mono recordings (Furtwängler). The european SACDs were a second thought.
Maybe if the european releases continue we'll see multichannel discs. But for the moment, it looks like they set up their remastering project for mono/stereo transfers only.
It's not a question of idiocy, but of priorities.
My humble wish would be that they focus on material which is at least stereo.
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Post by canonical April 23, 2012 (320 of 535)
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jgr said:
Lastly - I do hope Universal follows EMI's lead - please!
I hope they don't follow EMI's lead ...
Unlike EMI, ... Universal, to their credit, have recently started doing direct analog master tape to pure DSD conversions on all their latest SACD releases. Unlike EMI, they haven't had the need to distort the conversion with PCM, nor adding unnecessary conversions to and from analog, and then back to DSD ... removing hiss and who knows what else at the same time.
My impression of the EMI series started well with the Beethoven Triple, and has been going downhill. The Debussy Gieseking set is really something only of interest to Debussy or Gieseking specialists ... it is difficult to sit through them. The Brahms is a distorted mess. Many of them seem to give me headaches. I don't get headaches from Sony or Pentatone or Living Stereo re-releases. So I am reluctant to buy more of these.
I do hope that Universal release their new pure DSD conversions in the west at reasonable prices ... and I am really looking forwards to trying them.
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