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classicsforme said:
They use the finest studios, digital hardware, cable, power supplies and Rubidium master clock timing devices in the world, to re-master first to a DSD layer
Well, that's just plain wrong. They don't re-master first to DSD.
The studio (Decca etc) starts with an analog master tape made in the 1970s (say). They won't lend it to Esoteric, so they send over a PCM digital version of same .. it may not have very high resolution ... say 24 bit 96 kHz ... which is lower than DSD.
Esoteric can't convert directly from 24bit/96kHz to DSD, so their first step is not to DSD ... their first step is all the way back to analog ... not the original analog ... but the analog that has now been through two unnecessary and imperfect a/d/a conversions. Once they have analog again (albeit an imperfect version of the original analogue), they convert THAT imperfect version of the analog back to DSD. It is a very weird and strange process.
The rest of your epistle is complete piffle .. esp the parts about 24/96 and a second layer.
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Post by akiralx April 21, 2010 (52 of 64)
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classicsforme said:
...My bottom line, as a true audiophile and lover of the DSD process, is how does it sound?
Well, the only review we have says that this SACD sounds lousy, irrespective of all the technical gobbledygook.
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Absent any specific reference from the original poster, I contacted Esoteric in Japan, who kindly offered the following reply. The same contact has always been honest and frank in reply, even when it was not in their apparent interest to do so, and so I have no reason to doubt the following:
==========================================================
Esoteric reply
For our Schoenberg - Karajan SACD project we accessed to original materials which were recorded in 6 channel analog master tapes.
DG is a great company and was cooperative enough to mix down the original master recordings to a stereo 96/24 for our project.
This new stereo master was transfered to JVC mastering studio in Japan, where we transfered to DSD using our equipments.
This information is put on our "obi" sleeve.
Sorry but they are in Japanese. :-)
===========================================================
...
Summary: If I understand correctly, DG specially created a 24bit/96kHz stereo data file for Esoteric, and that was used as the source.
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Post by Claude April 23, 2010 (54 of 64)
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I already asked that question in a previous thread where a similar Esoteric statement about the "on demand transfer" was posted:
If Esoteric is so proud about their DSD A/D converter, why didn't send one to Universal to use it for the new transfer, instead of receiving an inferior 24/96 PCM transfer (24/192 is the professional standard today), playing this and re-recording the analogue output with their DSD converter. This does not make sense for an audiophile label.
I'm still convinced that Universal only gave them the old 24/96 transfer from their archives.
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Post by LPG1964 April 27, 2010 (55 of 64)
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Jonty said:
I note that LPG1964 has gone a little quiet.
Yes. I had a deadline for two remasterings, so I could not visit this forum.
Today I saw there was a lot of interesting stuff to read in this thread!
First of all, I am sorry if it turns out that these masters were not derived from CD. The information on the website and in the booklet was pointing in that direction. Furthermore, the poor quality of the sound seemed to affirm that assumption.
My warning was solely indented to prevent others from having the same disillusion. I had high hopes for this release, and because of my dissatisfaction I may have commented in too emotional a manner.
I also regret having mentioned my work as a sound engineer, since it was interpreted as pure bragging by some of the lesser gentle men. I have been active in recording for nearly 30 years now, but I certainly do not regard myself in the same league as people like Jared Sacks mentioned by the Insulting Dutchman. I attended one of his recording sessions recently, and indeed he deserves the highest praise for his pure and refined approach to recording. There are several others who manage to get excellent results nearly all the time, which is something alas I cannot say of myself. As most listeners will have experienced themselves, there are unfortunately also a lot of lesser gods in this industry, not to speak of what is happening in the world of pop music, which is a real tragedy.
Certainly, a verdict by a sound engineer is not more valid than that of another forum user, since his or her ears can be trained just as well by having a lot of listening experience. Purely subjective preferences can also never make a verdict universally apply.
As to the Esoteric remasterings:
The original DGG recordings always come in for a lot of criticism. They certainly lack the transparency and coherency of ambience that we have come to value in recordings with a simpler and purer approach. Yet, if we can accept them as a kind of tonal “painting” they do have other qualities that can easily be overlooked. It is wonderful to have the clear picture of a very lifelike and transparent Photo, but it can also be quite involving to look at a painted work that is further removed from reality. These Karajan recordings incorporate a particular view on the score, and if one tries to listen to them without the demand for clarity or realism, there is a lot of emotional power to shine through in these fabricated recordings. Both conductor and engineer had a combined vision of sound painting and although I appreciate technical excellence, I still consider the musical aspects of a recording the most important factor. I prefer a Brahms fourth symphony of the 60s by Karajan to a modern and excellently recorded version by some other conductor. (Now, if that is not sufficient fuel for flaming!)
Still, I think that a lot can be improved by investing time and affection in the remastering of these recordings. DGG has had a very unlucky hand in these remasterings over the past decade with the notable exception of the Beethoven 1962 sacd set, which is done really splendidly. Nearly all the so-called DGG Originals sound dry and dull. There can be various reasons for this, but I suspect that they did not use the highest quality AD converters for their 24/96 remasterings, and they probably used far too much of lousy noise removing algorithms. The quality of AD converters and de-noise programs has improved dramatically over the years, and they should really consider to make a fresh attempt. (Then there is of course also the everlasting discussion DSD/PCM, but I won’t comment on this since it would give rise to an endless argument.)
A lot of these DGG recordings could also benefit from minimizing phase problems by delaying the channels of the spot mikes, which they could not do at the time. However, they should never try to make a totally different soundstage since that would destroy the artistic vision of the conductor and engineer. They did this in the Sony remasterings of the DVD’s. They recreated the original recording by having loudspeakers play on the same spots where the mikes were standing in the original venue and they re-recorded this with only a few mikes. The idea was splendid and the result is spacey indeed, but the dramatic intensity and immediacy of sound is totally lost. If they would have blended the original tapes with the new re-recording they might have found an excellent synthesis, but alas they went too far in one direction.
Some other companies have had a luckier hand in remastering lately. EMI for instance has improved considerably with their Abbey Road remasterings in the past years. Most of them get a warm and reasonably clear sound out of their recordings from the 60s and 70s.
The ideal for the Second Viennese School would be a thorough remastering of the 6 channel analogue tapes into multichannel DSD. These highly complex scores could benefit a lot. In the current crisis and with the steer less Universal group chances are minimal that that will happen one day.
Finally I would like to make one observation: So far I had only joined some audio forums (because I like to build my own stuff as much as possible). What strikes me is that on those forums the tone is much more polite and relaxed, where on “audiophile” forums people seem keen to immediately cut each other’s throats! Why is that? Is our work or hobby not all about (serene) enjoyment? Is music not meant to lift the soul? Sorry for this rhetoric question, but I think this is the reason why people who make their job of music often avoid such forums…
I am curious whether more information will come out from Esoteric. If indeed they received 24/96 digital material from DGG then it is Universal who is to blame for having spoiled the change but Esoteric should have asked themselves too whether one should release such poor material on sacd.
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You want to talk about how "insulting" I am then you go on about, and I quote:
"Had some idiot abused the original master tapes?
Their idea (if they had one) is that when played back on high quality equipment (dacs, cables etc.) and then rerecorded in dsd it would give an improvement.
These fools. What an eyewash! How typical for such so-called “audiophiles”; spending fortunes on one end while completely forgetting the other end."
You call them fools, you call them idiots, you call them so-called audiophiles. The people who remastered these are also engineers, as you claim to be. You didn't like what they produced, but I don't see other engineers calling other engineers "idiots, fools, and so-called audiophiles" except you.
You say " this is the reason why people who make their job of music often avoid such forums…"
I don't see Jared, Groot, and Robert avoid this or other forums. You can speak for yourself, but you can't speak for them because they are here often on a daily basis and handle themselves quite well. Jared and Robert don't necessarily agree with each other regarding the use of DSD or hi-rez PCM, but they certainly respect the other for the work they do.
Insulting? Maybe you should look in the mirror.
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Post by Chris April 27, 2010 (57 of 64)
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LPG1964 said:
Finally I would like to make one observation: So far I had only joined some audio forums (because I like to build my own stuff as much as possible). What strikes me is that on those forums the tone is much more polite and relaxed, where on “audiophile” forums people seem keen to immediately cut each other’s throats! Why is that? Is our work or hobby not all about (serene) enjoyment? Is music not meant to lift the soul? Sorry for this rhetoric question, but I think this is the reason why people who make their job of music often avoid such forums…
I am curious whether more information will come out from Esoteric. If indeed they received 24/96 digital material from DGG then it is Universal who is to blame for having spoiled the change but Esoteric should have asked themselves too whether one should release such poor material on sacd.
Thanks for posting back regarding this thread.
First of all:I certainly agree with you that music should indeed lift the soul !
Your observations regarding this and other "audiophile" forums is also something I have to agree with.
Unfortunately some people get a bit overheated and even abusive when inconvenient truths they don´t really want to know anything about are sometimes revealed here.
Sad but true.
It would probably make quite an interesting psychological study.
My take on it is, that there will always be people who for various reasons need to identify with their material possessions.
I also agree with you regarding some of those early to mid 60s recordings by DGG.
They are not only musically sometimes still unrivalled.
IMHO they are also some of the most naturally balanced and realistic recordings made by that company.
Both the Brahms and Sibelius symphonies by Karajan and is Berliners are so good that I sometimes still listen to them on LP.
And yes if one were to go back to the orginal analogue masters and make DSD transfers from them,they would probably make SACDs of a similar quality as the 1962 Beethoven set.
I had high hopes that it would happen after that set but it didn´t.
Although much later,70s,and more multimiked the four Mahler symphonies and Das Lied von der Erde from Karajan would also be interesting to hear as DSD transfers from analogue masters IMO.
But it would not surprise me if Esoteric instead chooses to "remaster" the early digital ninth by Karajan just as they did with Kleiber´s Brahms fourth symphony.
One sometimes wonders why they really bother at all?
Finally, I think most people posting here are true Music lovers and the rude and impolite attacks are luckily rare.
By all means keep posting and add whatever points of view you may have on this or any other thread or subject.
All the best Chris
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That's right, Chris, give the guy a pass regardless of how insulting he goes on in his review about those "idiots" and "fools."
His comments are welcome as he talks about any weakness that comes about in the remastering of old recordings, but his comments are insulting and abusive as he refers to other engineers as idiots, fools, and so-called audiophiles.
As to my material possessions, i.e.,cds,etc., and "inconvenient truths," I couldn't care less since I have enough of all kinds of music that I don't get offended when another person doesn't like what I do.
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Post by LPG1964 April 27, 2010 (59 of 64)
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flyingdutchman said:
You want to talk about how "insulting" I am then you go on about, and I quote:
"Had some idiot abused the original master tapes?
Their idea (if they had one) is that when played back on high quality equipment (dacs, cables etc.) and then rerecorded in dsd it would give an improvement.
These fools. What an eyewash! How typical for such so-called “audiophiles”; spending fortunes on one end while completely forgetting the other end."
You call them fools, you call them idiots, you call them so-called audiophiles. The people who remastered these are also engineers, as you claim to be. You didn't like what they produced, but I don't see other engineers calling other engineers "idiots, fools, and so-called audiophiles" except you.
Insulting? Maybe you should look in the mirror.
You have got a point here, and as I said I was maybe a bit too emotional in my response to the Esoteric because of the embarrassing quality of the remastering, and hence my profound disillusion carried me away.
I also confess that my remark on “audiophiles” was not very polite, but it was somewhat provoked by the way Esoteric promotes their technique with an unduly underlining of exotic cables etc. It is not that these things do not matter, but if someone brags about these things, it usually means they tend to forget the whole picture, or worse, they do not have the ears to judge the wholeness of the recorded sound… (this should fuel some more flaming, I guess…).
So I did look (briefly) in the mirror…
Now what about YOU?
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LPG1964 said:
You have got a point here, and as I said I was maybe a bit too emotional in my response to the Esoteric because of the embarrassing quality of the remastering, and hence my profound disillusion carried me away.
I also confess that my remark on “audiophiles” was not very polite, but it was somewhat provoked by the way Esoteric promotes their technique with an unduly underlining of exotic cables etc. It is not that these things do not matter, but if someone brags about these things, it usually means they tend to forget the whole picture, or worse, they do not have the ears to judge the wholeness of the recorded sound… (this should fuel some more flaming, I guess…).
So I did look (briefly) in the mirror…
Now what about YOU?
Certainly, I am a curmudgeon and I admit it. But then you should have been here when Teresa called Robert (from BIS) a liar and worse. As for the things that Japanese engineers go through to remaster past recordings, I also believe they are guilty of occasionally over-hyping their product.
However, it has also been said in the past by many "so-called audiophiles" that Japanese releases of certain product are often the best there is (e.g., some think the Pink Floyd Dark Side Japanese release is better than the American release). Those are the instances where I find myself laughing since that is where the real hyperbole often lies.
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