Post by ramesh June 11, 2009 (1 of 64)
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Wow!
Hurray!
I have the Punyversal Japan CD remaster of the Schoenberg, and it has a far richer and better defined bass/lower treble sound than the first two DGG CD transfers, so it will be very interesting to hear what the pure DSD transfer of the analogue master tape on SACD sounds like.
The early 1970s original recordings to me sound like multi microphone/ multitack extravaganzas. Hopefully it'll sound better than the SACD of Karajan's 1976 Beethoven 9.
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I applaud you for you achieving like atonal or dodecaphonic music, for me the best thing about Schoenberg is that he was brother-in-law from Zemlinsky.
Schoenberg is much admired by the classical musicians, composers and music experts anyway.
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Post by akiralx June 12, 2009 (3 of 64)
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I can't understand why they've used that cover as that was only the 20th Century Classics CD box cover wasn't it?
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Post by Chris June 12, 2009 (4 of 64)
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ramesh said:
Wow!
Hurray!
I have the Punyversal Japan CD remaster of the Schoenberg, and it has a far richer and better defined bass/lower treble sound than the first two DGG CD transfers, so it will be very interesting to hear what the pure DSD transfer of the analogue master tape on SACD sounds like.
The early 1970s original recordings to me sound like multi microphone/ multitack extravaganzas. Hopefully it'll sound better than the SACD of Karajan's 1976 Beethoven 9.
After listening to and being less than completely overwhelmed by the recent RCO live SACD, I played the LP of Berg´s Drei Orchesterstücke from the orginal boxed set the other day.
And although it is definitely very multimiked, those Berliner strings and Karajan´s masterly conducting, made it a really enjoyable experience musically.
On the other hand so did Dorati in the early sixties on Philips with a more natural recording to match.
But I will probably also be interested to hear what a DSD transfer straight from the analogue masters will sound like.
I haven´t heard the 1976 Beethoven 9th on SACD.
I still much prefer the 1962-3 9th under Karajan on SACD to any modern competitor that has come my way.
And that includes the Vänska one from BIS.
One of my truly great live experiences was Karajan and his Berliners playing both the Eroica and the 9th in the Musikverein during the Wiener Festwochen in 1970.
I wonder if those performances have ever been released?
All the best Chris
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Post by Edvin June 12, 2009 (5 of 64)
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I have the Japanese SHM release of this and it sounds good. Same cover.
By the way, did you know that Karajan changed the positions of certain instruments while recording the Variations. He did this between each variation..for greater clarity. A funny thing is that DG used this info as a selling point.
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Post by Chris June 12, 2009 (6 of 64)
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Edvin said:
I have the Japanese SHM release of this and it sounds good. Same cover.
By the way, did you know that Karajan changed the positions of certain instruments while recording the Variations. He did this between each variation..for greater clarity. A funny thing is that DG used this info as a selling point.
Oh yes I do, and if I remember correctly it was Karajan´s own idea to make things clearer that way.
He even argued that some things that you, he read from the score could only be brought into real life that way.
Unfortunately Karajan was very fond of multimiking and even reacted to a German reporter´s questioning the valdity of multimiking.
He threatened to stop an interview if that subject was on the agenda.
Klemperer was obviously quite different. He threatened to leave in the middle of a recording session once because he thought there was too much "fiddling" going on at the mixing desk.
Pun intended.
Lets face it, a lot of what we hear on commercial recordings is not necessarily what the conductor and players wanted .But what the balancing engineer and even more the producer decides to put on the final disc.
Karajan of course always had the final word and actually DID listen to the final product before sanctioning its release.
I think that is quite rare today.
Without mentioning any names and labels.
I do know of conductors who don´t even listen to the finished product at all.
To me some of the very best Karajan recordings from the point of both sound quality and interpretation ,are the from late 50s EMI´s with the Philharmonia and the early sixties DGGs.
Apart from some slightly wiry strings at ff and above, the Beethoven symphonies he recorded for DGG are still my absolute favourites as I mentioned above.
But I would like to put my question about he live concert performances from 1970 .
Have they ever been released in your knowledge?
I also like some of his later recordings for Decca and EMI.
Some absolutely great Verdi and Puccini operas that still stand the test of time IMHO.
And his Bruckner recordings still give me great pleasure.
All the best Chris
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Post by aoqd22 June 12, 2009 (7 of 64)
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Chris said:
One of my truly great live experiences was Karajan and his Berliners playing both the Eroica and the 9th in the Musikverein during the Wiener Festwochen in 1970.
I would say the same thing about Karajan and his Berliners performance of the 4th and 5th in the Royal Albert Hall in London on the 4th Jan 1973.
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Post by ramesh June 12, 2009 (8 of 64)
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Chris said:
One of my truly great live experiences was Karajan and his Berliners playing both the Eroica and the 9th in the Musikverein during the Wiener Festwochen in 1970.
I wonder if those performances have ever been released?
Are you that old, dude? :-)
I thought about getting the Testament CD of the concert relay from London's Festival Hall when Karajan and the BPO performed the Schoenberg in the early 80s-- an acquaintance told me that this concert was one of the most profound musical events he'd attended. If it was a BBC recording on analogue tape the chances were good that the sound might be rich. However, I didn't do so as I was put off by the Gramophone's review concerning the less than ideal sound quality. If anyone who reads this has this Testament release, I'd be grateful if they could report on the sound, especially if they have K's studio recording to compare it with.
Yes, I bought the Gatti SACD of the Berg, and though it is well recorded, the Opus 6 doesn't take wing like Karajan's, although the Lulu suite is very interesting.
The Punyversal Japan CD I referred to has the Lyric suite instead of Berg's Op 6. What I find interesting in Karajan's studio recording of the Op 6 is the diversity of approaches he uses for the three pieces, almost finding different personalities for each. The performances of the first two pieces remind me of his studio recordings of Mahler 4 and 6, where the playing is at once incredibly precise and controlled, yet incredibly beautiful, lacking the glossy sheen he often achieved in his recordings of eg orchestral 'lollipops' and the lighter ballet repertoire. As for the last piece of Op 6, the great climaxes are almost 'wild and woolly', reminiscent of his studio recording of Mahler 5's first two movements. But it has a fantastic emotional charge. Compare this to Jimmy 'boyoboy' Levine's CD also with the Berliners of Berg Op 6. The performance is extremely good, but Karajan wrenches that extra burst of emotional intensity in critical sections of all three pieces.
I read what Thomas Roth refers to about Schoenberg working out at the blackboard the differing arrangements of the orchestra in the Variations, in Richard Osborne's biography of Karajan. From what I recall, Osborne doesn't make it clear whether Karajan attended one or several of Schoenberg's tutorials on the matter, or heard about it second hand. Certainly, Karajan was a student or a young conductor when Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern were teaching in Germany or Austria. If he did attend these lectures, then he should be given credit for at least being in a position to incorporate the composer's intentions into his interpretations.[ Osborne writes that Karajan sneaked into the concert hall to hear Toscanini rehearse Verdi's 'Falstaff' with the Vienna Phil at a Salzburg Festival ]
I find Karajan's performance of Schoenberg's Variations the most convincing I've heard. Actually, I heard a lot more detail in this recording, even with the crappy first CD release on a crappy early CD player, than the only live performance I attended-- the BBC SO, I think, in a stalls seat.
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Post by Edvin June 12, 2009 (9 of 64)
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Chris said:
Apart from some slightly wiry strings at ff and above, the Beethoven symphonies he recorded for DGG are still my absolute favourites as I mentioned above.
But I would like to put my question about he live concert performances from 1970 .
Have they ever been released in your knowledge?
All the best Chris
Dear Chris,
I can't remember seeing any releases of those concerts you mention. There must be tapes out there somewhere though.
Karajan made a lot of really great recordings and he is, imo, the greatest conductor ever. A pity he didn't record more Honegger, Prokofiev and others.
My SHM release is of the whole box.
Best, Thomas
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Post by Peter June 12, 2009 (10 of 64)
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ramesh said:
I thought about getting the Testament CD of the concert relay from London's Festival Hall when Karajan and the BPO performed the Schoenberg in the early 80s-- an acquaintance told me that this concert was one of the most profound musical events he'd attended. If it was a BBC recording on analogue tape the chances were good that the sound might be rich. However, I didn't do so as I was put off by the Gramophone's review concerning the less than ideal sound quality. If anyone who reads this has this Testament release, I'd be grateful if they could report on the sound, especially if they have K's studio recording to compare it with.
Sadly, the review is accurate; there are two CDs' worth of Karajan in London on Testament, each produced by a different team. The Schoenberg performance is coruscating, very much more intense than the studio version.
Unfortunately, the master tape is faulty and the sound is largely poor, especially in ffs, far worse than less than ideal. If you want to hear HvK fired up you'll excuse the shortcomings; what people say about these 1985 concerts is absolutely spot on.
By the way, HvK (and a symphony orchestra) playing Shostakovich 10 in Moscow in 1965 is similarly brilliant, in better sound though mono, on Melodiya. (The Bach is as bad as the Shostakovich is good, I think.)
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