Post by fausto K January 26, 2015 (1 of 13)
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Kirill Gerstein performs the composer's (2nd) version of Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto no. 1 (+ Prokofiev), with James Gaffigan conducting the fine Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin.
Of course, there are many recordings of this staple of the piano concerto repertoire, but a Myrios DSD engineering of what is also a world première recording of the originally intended version of the Tchaikovsky is enticing enough, methinks.
Read here:
http://www.kirillgerstein.com/
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Post by wehecht January 26, 2015 (2 of 13)
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I've already pre-ordered this one. I'll be interested to see how it compares to the "original" version recorded by Lazar Berman in the mid '80's (not his Karajan/BPO recording), the description of the opening bars on the linked website sounds very much like the Berman recording.
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fausto K said:
Kirill Gerstein performs the composer's (2nd) version of Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto no. 1 (+ Prokofiev), with James Gaffigan conducting the fine Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin.
Of course, there are many recordings of this staple of the piano concerto repertoire, but a Myrios DSD engineering of what is also a world première recording of the originally intended version of the Tchaikovsky is enticing enough, methinks.
Very interesting - I checked your link and one of the fascinating things about this new edition from which Gerstein is playing is that it will incorporate the markings of the final performance conducted by Tchaikovsky just before his death. I still think Gerstein should have acknowledged the pioneering recording from 1987 by Lazar Berman (with Temirkanov conducting the Berlin RSO) of the original version. Gerstein makes a big deal that he'll playing rolled chords on the second and third beats (of the opening of the concerto) as the composer originally intended. Well guess what? Berman already did that! (And BTW, I want to be clear here that we're talking about the recording with Temirkanov on the Schwann Musica Mundi label - not the glammed up and much more widely distributed, readily available one of the "standard version" with Karajan on DG.)
Whatever. It will be great to hear this version of the concerto in hi-rez sound.
EDIT - Wehecht, I'm so sorry! I overlooked your post before posting myself.
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Post by fausto K January 26, 2015 (4 of 13)
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Chris from Lafayette said:
Very interesting - I checked your link and one of the fascinating things about this new edition from which Gerstein is playing is that it will incorporate the markings of the final performance conducted by Tchaikovsky just before his death. I still think Gerstein should have acknowledged the pioneering recording from 1987 by Lazar Berman (with Temirkanov conducting the Berlin RSO) of the original version. Gerstein makes a big deal that he'll playing rolled chords on the second and third beats (of the opening of the concerto) as the composer originally intended. Well guess what? Berman already did that! (And BTW, I want to be clear here that we're talking about the recording with Temirkanov on the Schwann Musica Mundi label - not the glammed up and much more widely distributed, readily available one of the "standard version" with Karajan on DG.)
Whatever. It will be great to hear this version of the concerto in hi-rez sound.
EDIT - Wehecht, I'm so sorry! I overlooked your post before posting myself.
Berman's 1987 recording of the original "Urfassung", which incidentally I'm not familiar with, I take to be the *first* 1875 edition that Gerstein mentions, and so most likely is not the *second* edition of 1879 that Gerstein himself has recorded. In fact, it can't be, since, as Gerstein says, his (Gerstein's version) is based on *a yet to be published* edition, based on Tchaikovsky's own conducting score ("the new critical Urtext edition will be published in 2015 by the Tchaikovsky Museum in Klin"). And then there is the ubiquitously performed 3rd edition of 1894.
So I think it is at least misleading to suggest that Berman's recording already preceded (all of) the changes that Gerstein observes, and moreover, wouldn't Gersstein have checked his facts before marketing his disc as a world première recording?
Note: that Berman's recording is called *Urfassung* and Gerstein's is based on the to be published *Urtext* says nothing about them referring to the same version, unless Berman's were indeed also based on the so-called second version. It's perhaps misleading for the second version to be called the Urtext, if it is the case that Tchaikovsky's "intended" version is concerned.
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fausto K said:
Berman's 1987 recording of the original "Urfassung", which incidentally I'm not familiar with, I take to be the *first* 1875 edition that Gerstein mentions, and so is not the *second* edition of 1879 that Gerstein himself has recorded. It can't be, since, as Gerstein says, his (Gerstein's version) is based on *a yet to be published* edition, based on Tchaikovsky's own conducting score ("the new critical Urtext edition will be published in 2015 by the Tchaikovsky Museum in Klin"). And then there is the ubiquitously performed 3rd edition of 1894.
So I think it is at least misleading to suggest that Berman's recording already preceded (all of) the changes that Gerstein observes, and moreover, wouldn't Gersstein have checked his facts before marketing his disc as a world première recording?
Note: that Berman's recording is called *Urfassung* and Gerstein's is based on the to be published *Urtext* says nothing about them referring to the same version, unless Berman's were indeed also based on the so-called second version. It's perhaps misleading for the second version to be called the Urtext, if it is the case that Tchaikovsky's "intended" version is concerned.
Sorry if I gave the impression that the two pianists are playing the same editions - and I agree that this is impossible if for nothing more than the incorporation of markings in Tchaikovsky's own score at that last performance. (If I may get a little defensive here, I mentioned the incorporation of these notes and markings myself in my own post. And once again, I was not trying to suggest that Berman's recording has the same piano part as in the forthcoming Gerstein recording, despite some points of commonality, such as the rolled chords at the beginning) In fact, the notes for the Berman recording suggest that there is even more confusion, and with Zeus's indulgence, I'm going to quote from the booklet notes (by Jörg Morgener, translated by Celia Skrine) of the Berman recording.
"The publication of the B-flat minor concerto turned out to be anything but straightforward. The first version to appear (in December 1875) was one for [2-pianos?] four hands, doubtless based on Tchaikovsky's autograph score. . .
"The manuscript available for the printed edition of the full score in 1879 does not include the solo part, but only the following words in an unidentified hand, 'The piano part according to the enclosed, corrected version.' Unfortunately, it is not known what corrections were actually made. What is certain however is that Tchaikovsky's original solo part of 1874 differs notably from the solo part in the full score in 1879 [the point you were making]. . . After the composer's death, the piano part was frequently altered by virtuoso performers to suit themselves. . . Despite vociferous objections of Glazunov and Taneyev, the original version that Tchaikovsky had written was entirely overshadowed by these various alternative versions."
So. . . even though they are not playing the same version of the piano part, I still think Gerstein should have acknowledged the Berman recording as a pioneering effort in getting back to what Tchaikovsky intended.
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Post by fausto K January 26, 2015 (6 of 13)
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Chris from Lafayette said:
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Thanks, Chris. Your indulgence is granted :-)
That note from the Berman booklet is indeed illuminating, but as you say at the same time adding to the confusion.
I agree that Gerstein should have at least mentioned the BErman recording, but maybe there is more in the accompanying booklet. I shall certainly buy the disc, when it's out, so we'll see what he makes of it. (I'm sure the recording will be stupendous.)
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Gentlemen,
Adding to your discussion of the Berman recording of Tchaikovsky PC#1 in original version as well as my upcoming one:
My sleeve notes for the CD attempt to explain the history of the three versions of the concerto. In my article, I write about the edition that Berman's teacher, Alexander Goldenweiser did in 1954/55. That is the text that Berman recorded. Goldenweiser didn't have access to some crucial sources during the time of his research. He attempted to separate later editorial interventions from Tchaikovsky's own text. However, his version ends up being a hybrid, with a lot of the 1879 version details being discarded as inauthentic. So, in effect, the text as was printed in that edition is a mixture of 1875, 1879 and even some posthumous version details that remained. For example, he did not have access to Tchaikovsky's own conducting score that was used by the composer for his last public performance. This score as well as further sources (such as pre and post 1894 printed copies with acquisition date stamps) have helped the new edition's researchers to establish Tchaikovsky's last known intentions as to the actual text of the concerto.
Goldenweiser and Berman made the best possible effort at the time. We are enjoying fruits of the later and more richly sourced research in to the history of the concerto. For the first time, the borders between the 1875, the 1879 and posthumous versions have been accurately established by the editors of the new urtext.
Hope this helps clarify the question of the different versions.
Thank you for reading and listening. Kirill Gerstein
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Post by wehecht January 27, 2015 (8 of 13)
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kgerstein said:
Gentlemen,
Goldenweiser and Berman made the best possible effort at the time. We are enjoying fruits of the later and more richly sourced research in to the history of the concerto. For the first time, the borders between the 1875, the 1879 and posthumous versions have been accurately established by the editors of the new urtext.
Hope this helps clarify the question of the different versions.
Thank you for reading and listening. Kirill Gerstein
Dear Mr. Gerstein,
Thank you for the clarification. I'm very much looking forward to hearing the recording.
Bill Hecht
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kgerstein said:
. . .
Goldenweiser and Berman made the best possible effort at the time. We are enjoying fruits of the later and more richly sourced research in to the history of the concerto. For the first time, the borders between the 1875, the 1879 and posthumous versions have been accurately established by the editors of the new urtext.
Hope this helps clarify the question of the different versions.
Thank you for reading and listening. Kirill Gerstein
Thank you very much - the issue is becoming ever more clarified. Looking forward to your hi-rez release, especially since I've not heard your playing before!
BTW, if the 1875 edition was published only for two pianos, they would have had to get an orchestral part from somewhere for the Berman recording. ;-)
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Post by kgerstein January 27, 2015 (10 of 13)
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It is true that the concerto was first _published_ as a two piano reduction. The score however was copied by hand. The copy that was sent to van Bülow for the premiere is now in staatsbibliothek Berlin and can be found in their online digital archive for viewing. The parts for performance were also copied out. The orchestra score was published in 1879, and by then Tchaikovsky had improved and optimized the piano part.
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