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Hi all I am new to this forum and would like to ask a question in regarding connecting my DVD/SA-CD player to AV Amp.
I am using a DENON 1940 player connected to an old Sony Av receiver which is connected for SA-CD duties via 5.1 multi av input/output using phono leads. Which all works fine.
My problem is I am looking to replace my Amp with something newer and to take advantage of HDMI switching of video sources. Most of the new amps on the block do not support a seperate 5.1 multi channel input via phono, but can be routed by HDMI. Which is fine, except my Denon player can only output multi channel audio through the use of HDMI in DVD- Audio not SA-CD. Donnh!
I've checked with several big name cable makers to see if there is some sort of switching unit or phono to HDMI cable available, but no joy.
It to me, seems a real shame that alot of the companys making Av amps these days have ommitted this imput. Probably down to cost restraints etc, no dought.
Would anyone know of a possable solution to this problem? As a last thought, I do have a PS3, but not to shure if it is capable of playing SA-CD's via a HDMI output.
Kind regards, John.
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Post by fafnir November 30, 2009 (2 of 8)
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tumbleweed said:
Hi all I am new to this forum and would like to ask a question in regarding connecting my DVD/SA-CD player to AV Amp.
I am using a DENON 1940 player connected to an old Sony Av receiver which is connected for SA-CD duties via 5.1 multi av input/output using phono leads. Which all works fine.
My problem is I am looking to replace my Amp with something newer and to take advantage of HDMI switching of video sources. Most of the new amps on the block do not support a seperate 5.1 multi channel input via phono, but can be routed by HDMI. Which is fine, except my Denon player can only output multi channel audio through the use of HDMI in DVD- Audio not SA-CD. Donnh!
I've checked with several big name cable makers to see if there is some sort of switching unit or phono to HDMI cable available, but no joy.
It to me, seems a real shame that alot of the companys making Av amps these days have ommitted this imput. Probably down to cost restraints etc, no dought.
Would anyone know of a possable solution to this problem? As a last thought, I do have a PS3, but not to shure if it is capable of playing SA-CD's via a HDMI output.
Kind regards, John.
If I understand your problem correctly, you are looking for a way to connect your phono output from a turntable into your AV receiver, which lacks this input.
Audio-Technica makes a phono preamp that connects between the turntable and any spare high level input on a receiver or amp. There is usually at least one spare available. It provides amplification as well as the necessary RIAA equalization.
I recently purchased one on line from Crutchfield for my daughter for about $60.
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Post by soundboy November 30, 2009 (3 of 8)
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tumbleweed said:
Hi all I am new to this forum and would like to ask a question in regarding connecting my DVD/SA-CD player to AV Amp.
I am using a DENON 1940 player connected to an old Sony Av receiver which is connected for SA-CD duties via 5.1 multi av input/output using phono leads. Which all works fine.
My problem is I am looking to replace my Amp with something newer and to take advantage of HDMI switching of video sources. Most of the new amps on the block do not support a seperate 5.1 multi channel input via phono, but can be routed by HDMI. Which is fine, except my Denon player can only output multi channel audio through the use of HDMI in DVD- Audio not SA-CD. Donnh!
I've checked with several big name cable makers to see if there is some sort of switching unit or phono to HDMI cable available, but no joy.
It to me, seems a real shame that alot of the companys making Av amps these days have ommitted this imput. Probably down to cost restraints etc, no dought.
Would anyone know of a possable solution to this problem? As a last thought, I do have a PS3, but not to shure if it is capable of playing SA-CD's via a HDMI output.
Kind regards, John.
Unfortunately, the Denon 1940 is only capable of outputting SACD thru its analog outputs. The move of AV receivers eliminating 5.1 analog inputs has more to do with the increasing number of Blu-ray players that can output their audio via their HDMI outputs; the processing of DSD is rarely in these receivers' designers unless you are looking at a more up-market model. I'd recommend looking for AV receivers produced within the last 2 years to get the latest surround decoding technologies and the multi-channel surround analog inputs. The choices will be limited but at least you can prolong the usefulness of your Denon 1940.
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tumbleweed said:
I do have a PS3, but not to shure if it is capable of playing SA-CD's via a HDMI output.
If it's got an SACD logo on the side then it's capable of playing them back via HDMI. In case of doubt, check the PS3 SACD FAQ.
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I'm afraid I can't give you a definitive answer, but a possibility you should look into is that your Denon, since it has HDMI output, will likely output the multichannel signal over HDMI off of any disc it is capable of reading. You make it sound like you're already certain that it won't output a DSD signal, but I would be shocked if the player did not convert DSD to 24-bit PCM for the purpose of transmitting over HDMI.
A few A/V receivers (particularly from Onkyo) will accept DSD over HDMI. If your Denon won't output DSD this capability isn't much use to you now, but you might think of investing in it now anyway, just to future-proof your system in case you ever upgrade your disc player to something which can output DSD. The lowest priced models from any manufacturer will offer HDMI video switching, but for reasons unknown will not process any HDMI audio - you'll want to avoid these as they won't help you with SACD playback at all, certainly not multichannel.
You'll also want to check the maximum PCM sampling rate which your Denon will output. Basically, if it can output at 192kHz, you'll want to be sure your new receiver can handle that. A receiver with 24/96kHz D/A converters will limit your options quite a bit. Every time you convert, upsample, or downsample a digital signal you create the potential for some loss of quality. Again, if we assume the Denon can convert DSD to 24/192 PCM, but then has to downsample again to 96kHz in order to be compatible with a receiver, you are introducing condition which could lead to an audible loss of sound quality.
Another tip: even if you don't make purchase from them, check out crutchfield.com as they usually offer excellent quality pics of the rear sides of all the components they sell. This makes it easy to spot if a receiver has 5.1 or 7.1 analog inputs, which a few models still do in addition to HDMI. One of these receivers will at least give you the option of sticking with the analog outputs of your player in case you don't like the results with HDMI.
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Post by DSD November 30, 2009 (6 of 8)
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Hi John and welcome to the forum.
The original HDMI spec did not allow any output at all from an SACD. From the manual to my Yamaha DVD-S1700 "SA-CD signals cannot be output using HDMI" Just like your Denon, my Yamaha will output DVD-Audio via HDMI but not SACD. So if I ever went multichannel I would need to use the 6 channel analog RCA cables for SACD. This could be one of the reasons SACD players with the original HDMI spec are currently at super discount prices.
The next HDMI spec converted DSD to high resolution PCM, and the latest spec allows you to choose DSD or PCM to match your receiver or processer/pre-amp.
In short you may want to look at older receivers for 6 analog multichannel inputs.
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HDMI 1.1 only supports LPCM (and lossy DD, DTS, etc.). Starting from HDMI 1.2 the standard supports DSD stream output and we are at version 1.3 right now. HOWEVER, not all players can output DSD even if they have HDMI 1.2 and above, and some don't even convert the DSD stream to hi-res PCM. IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT WHAT IS BEING SUPPORTED BY A GIVEN HDMI SPEC but more about what a manufacturer is willing to support. AFAIK the only players that can output DSD and/or convert DSD into hi-res LPCM for their HDMI outputs are selected Pioneer Elite and Oppo 'universal' player models (and the latest Sony 5400 SACD/CD players). Some mid to higher end Denon players will only output DSD via their proprietary "Denon-Link". Some players, like the TEAC Esoteric's, a few older Denon's and a few older Pioneer Elite's will also output DSD on an encrypted i.Link/firewire audio connection.
Also, not all receiver and pre-pro can take DSD even though they have HDMI 1.2/1.3 inputs. Even if yours can take DSD on HDMI the stream will be converted into PCM for processing (e.g. Audyssey on Onkyo's and Denon's). Some receivers/pre-pro have a certain "direct mode" for DSD which supposed to bypass all the extra processing and convert the DSD stream to analog audio w/o the extra LPCM conversion but I am not convinced this is really what's happening behind the scene for some IMHO.
Only the launch PS3 (20GB and 60GB) and the first batch of 80GB models is compatible with SACD. Look for the "Super Audio CD" logo. However, all of them play "DSD" DVD-ROM like the Sony 5400 SACD/CD player.
If you have none of these your best bet is to get a player with good analog multi-channels output and a pre-pro/receiver/preamp that has (at least one) multi-channels analog input.
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DSD said:
The original HDMI spec did not allow any output at all from an SACD. From the manual to my Yamaha DVD-S1700 "SA-CD signals cannot be output using HDMI" Just like your Denon, my Yamaha will output DVD-Audio via HDMI but not SACD. So if I ever went multichannel I would need to use the 6 channel analog RCA cables for SACD. This could be one of the reasons SACD players with the original HDMI spec are currently at super discount prices.
The next HDMI spec converted DSD to high resolution PCM, and the latest spec allows you to choose DSD or PCM to match your receiver or processer/pre-amp.
In short you may want to look at older receivers for 6 analog multichannel inputs.
Yes, the first HDMI spec (v1.0) did not include SACD but "the next HDMI spec" (v1.1) did not convert DSD to hi res PCM. It only permitted hi res PCM but the player, prior to the HDMI interface, had to do the conversion. The next (v1.2) and subsequent versions permit DSD.
Kal
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