Post by Petrus  October 4, 2009 (11 of 23)
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It is quite simple that older masters (and some new ones also) were recorded at 44.1 kHz and thus can not have any content above 22 kHz. Converting old masters to DSD and printing them to SACD can not suddenly make higher frequences appear from nowhere.
It is another matter totally that why is frequency analyzer needed to find this out, why not just listen? (I know the answer).
In reality the frequency spectrum above 22 kHz on SACDs is filled with noise pushed there by the necessary noise shaping to make dynamic range between 10 and 22 kHz passable (as good as RBCD, that is).
It is quite prudent to use lowpass filtering in the SACD player to cut this nonmusical signal from reaching the speakers. Tweeters do not like large amounts of ultrasonics, which they are not usually capable of reproducing anyway.
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Petrus said:
to make dynamic range between 10 and 22 kHz passable (as good as RBCD, that is).
Petrus, not as "good" as RBCD but better, better than RBCD.
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Post by Stanbury October 4, 2009 (13 of 23)
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bissie said:
With the reservation that I have totally misunderstood Stanbury, may I say that we have already several times gone on record telling that American Spectrum is recorded with 24 bit, 44,1 kHz.
To say anything else now is ludicrous.
Or did I get it wrong?
And BIS is spelled in upper case - stands for a lot of things, but "Bloody Interesting Stuff" comes closest to the mark.
Robert
Bissie:
44.1 kHz PCM works out to 22 kHz analogue, and my spectrum analyzer results refer to the analogue frequencies.
Sorry I didn't capitalize BIS. But now it is to late to edit. It was my intention for this thread to collect a list of SACDs with this frequency limit, for whatever use. I had no intention to cast any aspersions, and I love all my BIS recordings!
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Stanbury said:
Bissie:
44.1 kHz PCM works out to 22 kHz analogue, and my spectrum analyzer results refer to the analogue frequencies.
Perhaps to make it more clear to everyone the words: "A sampling rate of" needed to be added.
A sampling rate of 44.1Khz yields an analog frequency response of 22Khz.
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Petrus said:
In reality the frequency spectrum above 22 kHz on SACDs is filled with noise pushed there by the necessary noise shaping to make dynamic range between 10 and 22 kHz passable (as good as RBCD, that is).
Actually, there are 2 errors in the above:
First, the noise is not pushed above 22 kHz ... it is pushed above 50 kHz and then generally filtered out by most DA converters at around 50 kHz.
Second, as audioholik noted, SACD dynamic range > CD dynamic range.
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Post by steviev October 4, 2009 (16 of 23)
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Stanbury said:
There has been much discussion on this forum recently about 22.1 kHz SACDs. I have identified a few SACDs which seem to be limited to 22.1 kHz, and the list is given below. These are disks that I have confirmed as 22.1 kHz by use of spectrum analyzer software with 96/24 PCM conversions of the analogue output from the stereo DSD tracks. Does anyone know of other disks like this?
Steely Dan’s “Gaucho” on MCA (Universal)
Peter Gabriel’s “Up” on Geffen
Patricia Barber’s “Café Blue” on Mobile Fidelity
Norah Jones’ “Come away with me” on Blue Note
“American Spectrum” on Bis.
Probably there are other Bis recordiings of this type.
Thanks for bringing this important information to our attention.
I always try to purchase discs with frequency response well below 22Khz so that I won't disturb my neighbor's cats and dogs and so that the local bats won't come crashing into my apartment windows.
Please keep on spectroanalyzing, and bring your findings to our attention so that we will know what recordings to buy and which to avoid.
Happy analyzin',
Steve
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Post by bissie October 4, 2009 (17 of 23)
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canonical said:
I believe Sir Stanbury is referring to the frequency range on some shipping SACDs (not the recording resolution). The frequency range on a recording is bounded by the Nyquist rate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist_rate
... to be half of the recording resolution, so if a SACD was recorded at a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz, then the frequency range on the disc will be bounded to 22 kHz. If it was recorded at 96 kHz, then the frequency range would be bounded to 48 kHz etc.
And what Sir Stanbury appears to be doing, is using a spectrum analyzer to check the frequency range on the discs he buys... and if that is truncated at 22 kHz, then the disc was most likely recorded at 44.1 kHz rather than a higher rate.
P.S. Bissie, this would be a relatively easy way to empirically check your Vanska test, btw.
Thanks for explaining. Then Lord Melbury, sorry, Sir Stanbury ought to have written just that.
Regarding the BIS van Beethoven test, guess how many answers I have got.
Right, none.
Rather indicative, I'd say. I mean, if it is so easy to distinguish, why hasn't anyone dared? Obviously just by using his/her ears.
Robert
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Post by Stanbury July 19, 2010 (18 of 23)
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In Hobbit13's review of Sarah K's "Hell or High Water", his spectrum analysis indicates that this is another SACD with a hard frequency cutoff at 21 kHz. Hobbit13 complains bitterly that this leads to no improvement over CD, but obviously the multichannel tracks are another matter.
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Stanbury said:
In Hobbit13's review of Sarah K's "Hell or High Water", his spectrum analysis indicates that this is another SACD with a hard frequency cutoff at 21 kHz. Hobbit13 complains bitterly that this leads to no improvement over CD, but obviously the multichannel tracks are another matter.
Sara K's Hell or High Water has a lot of snap, crackle and pop to it so I would love to know first of all the player which he is using and secondly, are any of the internal filters being employed for SACD playback?
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i was wondering, what are the sound implications if the playing device outputs music at a higher resolution, for example, my Playstation 3 outputs SACD´s to 176.4 Khz and i can see that resolution displayed in my Onkyo Receiver, when i use my Oppo, it only shows a resolution/stream of 88.2 kHz for SACD playing and of 48, 88.2, 96 (and even 192) kHz for DVD Audio playing (depending of the title played).
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