Post by Edvin April 22, 2008 (11 of 27)
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This is diet Beethoven and it is dreadful. Where is the drama, the conflict? Laughably bad actually.
The "reviewers" on this site are a strange breed since they seem to like everything as long as it is on SACD.
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Post by andrewb April 22, 2008 (12 of 27)
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Edvin said:
This is diet Beethoven and it is dreadful. Where is the drama, the conflict? Laughably bad actually.
The "reviewers" on this site are a strange breed since they seem to like everything as long as it is on SACD.
Nothing to do with SACD. Personally I have found Haitink, Vanska and Jarvi all disappointing in this particular symphony, though they are excellent in some of the others. This is the finest Eroica I have heard on CD or SACD, thats compared to about 10 other versions I have purchased over the last 25 years.
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andrewb said:
Personally I have found Haitink, Vanska and Jarvi all disappointing in this particular symphony, though they are excellent in some of the others.
The same here.
Watching the video, I thought they sound simliar to Karajan/BPO's reading (1962).
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Post by andrewb April 23, 2008 (14 of 27)
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sunnydaler said:
The same here.
Watching the video, I thought they sound simliar to Karajan/BPO's reading (1962).
From the video, with its poor sound quality, I can see why you might say that, but listening to the two discs side by side there are substantial differences. Karajan is much faster in the first movement, and throughout builds the climaxes with greater force (Karajan was always superb at this), this being emphasised by his much bigger orchestra. The BPO's style is obviously more romantic than that of the period approach of Manze and the Helsingborg. The latter orchestra may have less fire but their small size gives their sound a transparency which allows all the musical detail to be heard and the lines to be much more easily followed.
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Edvin said:
This is diet Beethoven and it is dreadful. Where is the drama, the conflict? Laughably bad actually.
The "reviewers" on this site are a strange breed since they seem to like everything as long as it is on SACD.
Note true with me...I have bought plenty of redbook CD's along with a large does of SACD titles....I do not buy a disc just because it is an SACD, though if there is a choice between a RBCD and an SACD (like from HM and Telarc) I will choose the SACD...
I will NEVER say that every SACD I bought is stunning and many have gone back or have been sold...with the exception of a dreadful SACD from EBS, I have never nor will never publish a bad review here....just because I dislike a performance/recording does not mean it is bad..same goes for wine, cigars, cars, art, audio gear etc...
Cheers,
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Post by Edvin April 24, 2008 (16 of 27)
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Reviews are personal opinions. But there are better cigars, wines, cars etc. If I say that a Mercedes is a better car than a Trabant that is not merely an opinion, but also a fact! And there are performances that follow the composers intentions more closely than other.
To say that everything is a matter of taste is ignorant and stupid.
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Post by ramesh April 24, 2008 (17 of 27)
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Edvin said:
Reviews are personal opinions. But there are better cigars, wines, cars etc. If I say that a Mercedes is a better car than a Trabant that is not merely an opinion, but also a fact!
Actually, from the time Mercedes bought Chrysler, Mercedes has had an appalling reputation for reliability. Annual surveys in America of customer satisfaction showed that modern Mercedes cars were less relaible than Daihatsus or Hyundais.
I remember an episode of the UK car show 'Top GEar' where Jeremy Clarkson was testing I think a Merc CL with a 5 litre supercharged engine, was amazed at the power, and equally amazed that the top of the car's gear shift lever came off in his hand because it had been assembled so badly!
THis being said, I bought Haitink's interpretation of the Eroica based on Thomas Roth's recommendation on this site, and it's magnificent. The Klemperer versions in mono and stereo are slightly more intense in the Funeral March, but Haitink has more elan in the latter stages of the finale, where late Klemperer goes slightly off the boil with too slack a pace.
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Post by hok007 May 9, 2008 (18 of 27)
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Gramophone's May issue contains a somewhat critical review of this recording, particularly the balance between the channels. In relevant part, Nalen Anthoni states: "Manze creates expectations of an edifice that unfolds at a wide range of tempi, if not always the requisit tension. The miking arrangement may be partly responsible for this. Rightly, Manze places the second violins (one fewer than the firsts) antiphonally; but they are not integrated with the rest of the band and are, at best, weakly localised in the right speaker, often leaving a hole in the string texture." Anthoni concludes the review by noting that "the sound, despite the glitch in the violin balance, is more refined and analytical in SACD than CD."
What shall we make of this? For those of you who have this recording, do you sense a problem with the miking? Does it affect your overall impression of the performance?
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Post by andrewb May 9, 2008 (19 of 27)
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hok007 said:
Gramophone's May issue contains a somewhat critical review of this recording, particularly the balance between the channels. In relevant part, Nalen Anthoni states: "Manze creates expectations of an edifice that unfolds at a wide range of tempi, if not always the requisit tension. The miking arrangement may be partly responsible for this. Rightly, Manze places the second violins (one fewer than the firsts) antiphonally; but they are not integrated with the rest of the band and are, at best, weakly localised in the right speaker, often leaving a hole in the string texture." Anthoni concludes the review by noting that "the sound, despite the glitch in the violin balance, is more refined and analytical in SACD than CD."
What shall we make of this? For those of you who have this recording, do you sense a problem with the miking? Does it affect your overall impression of the performance?
I noted this review, but did not find the string sound a problem when I listened to the disc. It 'might' be that there is less sound from the second violins through the right speaker than one might expect, but there is no indication in the notes or elsewhere, as far as I am aware, of exactly how the violins are laid out. It is certainly not clear from the promotional video. Without some visual clue or otherwise of 'exactly' where the second violins are located on the stage, it is very difficult to judge this matter.
There is no lack of bass string sound from the right channel.
Also Nalen Anthoni makes no mention of whether he was listening to SACD in stereo or multi-channel, one assumes stereo: all of my listening has been done in multi-channel.
As to the "requisite tension" in the first movement, I found it had all the required tension and far more than in most other recordings.
Also note that the review in the March edition of IRR makes no mention of this point about the string balance and highly praises the disc. These days, sadly, I place a lot more trust in IRR than Gramophone. Like many reviews in Gramophone these days, the review seems almost perfunctory, which is perhaps a reflection of the very short length of most Gramophone reviews. The IRR review of this disc seems to be at least twice as long compared to Gramophone, and is far more informative.
By the way, I received my copy of Herreweghe's account yeserday. On first hearing it is fairly typical of recent recordings by Haitink and P. Jarvi, although probably less forceful and certainly not as fast as Jarvi. In common with many other recordings of the Beethoven symphonies I thought the orchestra too large.
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Post by lana May 11, 2008 (20 of 27)
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After reading all these notes I would like to remark you should forget Manze for a while and listen to the thrilling performance of Beethoven's Eroica by Giovanni Antonini. It's a splendid multichannel recording by Sony. No Creatures of Prometheus are added but a second disc with the 4th Symphony. Same quality!
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