Post by ramesh June 24, 2006 (11 of 24)
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coherent_guy said:
Where was I supposed to learn this, in music appreciation? If you don't study an instrument, or even do, when do you learn about the forms and styles of classical music? Self taught, I suppose.
Mate,
you have it easy. I had to accommodate an entirely different culture, growing up with sitar music. When I first saw a cello, it was a puzzle where the other 20 strings had gone. I learned it as 'white music', then was told it was called, 'classical', but Indian culture has classical and pop/folk distinctions too. 'Western classical' was the compromise.
There is an interesting book published last year by Steve Mithen, 'The Singing Neanderthals : the Origins of Music, Language, Mind, and Body'. Mithen's earlier book, 'The Prehistory of the Mind', is one of the great science books of recent times. There is a persuasive theory that gestures predated the evolution of spoken language. The principal exponent of this is an academic called Corballis. ( That people gesticulate when speaking excitedly is allegedly a behavioural relic.) Mithen adds singing to the list of language antecedents. For instance, in all cultures parents sing or speak in highish pitches to babies, even though this is at odds with the way words are pronounced.
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My goodness, that one little sub-sentence with words lifted from the orginal posting sure got your attention and quite a reaction. As the original author was referencing the stereotype of classical music, so was I. And Ramesh, don't you know the West defines, invents, and discovers everything?! They "discovered" the "new" world, just ask the folks already here. Then again, you may be lamenting the difference between a noun and adjective. Is Ravi Shankar classical sitar or classical Indian music? Westernized? Indiopop? Not that I know. Can Classical music only come from Europe?
But Windsurfer, what of this:
Some people will never like classical music and I think those are the people who never sing or whistle or hum to themselves.
Huh? My brother in law who thinks Beethoven is a Saint Bernard, sings, hums, jams and whistles Blue Oyster Cult songs constantly, among many others. That is quite a generalization, and judgement.
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Post by raffells June 25, 2006 (13 of 24)
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Windsurfer said:
I don't know a fugue from a tocatta either,
It is a starting point.
Enough said...LOL.
Otherwise I totally agree.
Most people will listen and like a piece of music that is background to a film or TV piece,even an advert and like it.Then they learn its a classical piece and its less interesting sometimes.So it can be a two headed sword..
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coherent_guy said:
What of this?
"Some people will never like classical music and I think those are the people who never sing or whistle or hum to themselves."
Huh? My brother in law who thinks Beethoven is a Saint Bernard, sings, hums, jams and whistles Blue Oyster Cult songs constantly, among many others. That is quite a generalization, and judgement.
Your brother-in-law obviously is not one of those I was referring to then, is he? If he is sensitive to melody, he can learn to like classical music. Other requirements are an open mind, (can't be one of those folks who make it a point of pride to say they don't like it, or first must overcome that difficulty), and perhaps some degree of patience. Regarding patience, it is sometimes difficult to like that which is not familiar, whether food, art, literature, or music. Takes repetitive exposure to gain understanding and hence appreciation.
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mandel said:
As for "What can I do?", tell us what classical discs you already have and what sort of pop/rock music you like and we might be able to suggest something worth trying.
Thank you mandel, for your offer. Much of the music I enjoy is not found among the pop and rock categories. I enjoy Jazz, both new and... classic, I love Patricia Barber and Diana Krall, Oregon and John McLaughlin, and Brubeck and Miles and Art Pepper. Also Antonio Jobim of samba and Girl From Ipanema fame. I enjoy acoustic guitar music, Michael Hedges at the top of my list. He and others I like are classified New Age, because they don't fit elsewhere, I assume, like Ottmar Liebert, VAS, and Sara K. I have many Windham Hill and Narada compilation disks, and Chesky. In pop and rock I like the Cowboy Junkies, Police and solo Sting, Beatles (over the R. Stones), J. Hendrix, an Aussie band called Midnight Oil, Depeche Mode, Peter Gabriel. I'm rather all over the place. BTW, most of my collection are not SACDs, as that is a relatively recent phenomenon. In Classical I have several compilation disks, by Telarc and Pilz, as I try to find what I like, I have no friends that are Classical music enthusiasts. One in particular I like has Bernstein, The Magnificent Seven and Aaron Copland, Fanfare for the Common Man and Rodeo. I like Strauss waltzes and Also Sprach Zarathustra, I will admit from the movie 2001 soundtrack. Also Holtz, The Planets, Vivaldi, Four Seasons, Tchaikovsky, Nutcracker Suite, the well known works. Beethoven Symphony Eroica, Mahler Symphony No. 5, and related to my other tastes, Andres Segovia. If I've named these all correctly it is a miracle, and I am purchasing virtually blind in some cases as I am alone in the Classical genre' when it comes to friends. I was astonished and gratified to see all the interest in Classical music in this forum, since it is not Classical specific, a whole new world to me. Tell me, what are your sources for SACDs? Online ordering? My local Tower Records recently shrunk their Classical offerings, and has mixed the formerly segregated SACDs (of all kinds) into the regular CDs. They seem to consider SACDs a failed medium, and now have a large "dual disk" section, the combo DVD/CD disks (not DVD Audio). Best Buy had a seperate SACD section, but how long that will last I do not know. This is long so I'll stop, I'll answer questions and will watch for replies, I appreciate your offer of assistance, thanks so much.
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Post by mandel June 25, 2006 (16 of 24)
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I have to admit to not knowing the first thing about Jazz, but there are some Jazz inspired classical pieces, Maurice Ravel's piano concertos might interest you.
If you like acoustic guitar music I'd suggest the SACD of Rodrigo and Vivaldi concertos. I used to enjoy Rodrigo's Concerto de Aranjuez before I started generally listening to classical music.
(We're now 100 miles off topic, I hope Edvin doesn't mind too much :D )
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Post by brenda June 25, 2006 (17 of 24)
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coherent_guy said:
Tell me, what are your sources for SACDs? Online ordering?
Dear coherent, re. buying, - i dont bother with record shops because the web serves SACD very well indeed. This site is a great help to online buying because alongside every favourable review or other mention, zeus has placed a link to several online purchase options. Not only can you click straight to them but the amazon sites will also give you other options for purchase, in amazon marketplace shops and some of these (such as caiman) offer spectacularly competitive prices, sometimes half that of amazon itself (though amazon itself does have some very good specials of its own).
Best single item postage prices for you are prob. amazon.com and amazon.ca.
Another of this site's partners, jpc, is very good, especially if you pre-order and get a few at a time to save on per item postage. If you got four or five then jpc's postage to the US works out quite cheaply.
I also like Europadisc and mdt, both based in the uk and both of them offering tax free sales to the US as well as at-cost postage and packing.
Re. getting started, there have already been a few threads on this site on this subject and a search will probably bring up at least one or two of these. An alternative is to pick a few good download sites and, if not download, then get sound samples of music by composers you already like. Some sites offer an "if you liked that then you'll like this facility".
As a magazine largely for beginners, BBC Music magazine also offers that service as well as instructive entry-levl articles on music and composers. It also provides a free disc of whole works (this month its Nielsen and Sibelius Symphonies no. 1), - whereas other offer only isolated bleeding chunks.
There are also quite a few US public broadcasting and web-based classical music stations offering 24 hour classics.
Best wishes,.
Brenda
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Post by Edvin June 25, 2006 (18 of 24)
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I think you should try some Stravinsky. Histoire du soldat, Symphony in three movements, The rite of spring and smaller pieces like the Concertino, Ebony Concerto and Tango.
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Post by brenda June 25, 2006 (19 of 24)
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coherent_guy said:
I appreciate your offer of assistance, thanks so much.
dear coherent,
i forgot to mention membran and Brilliant SACDs. Both are very cheap but there are some real bargains to let you get into things cheaply. The Brilliant classic set of Mozart piano concertos is not great but is serviceable, and if you can image these works sounding 10 times better in the hands of great artisis, like Brendel, then that might spark some exploration. The brilliant classics set of Mozart symphonies, however, is much better and is totally recommendable in its own right.
There's also a good bargain SACD set with pianist Clara Wurtz which included quite a few masterpieces all of which are at least decently played.
Bear in mind that the Brilliant box sets released so far are "spatialised" stereo, artifically transformed into surround. To my ears, the results on the Symphonies and Wurtz set are quite decent.
Membran can be very frustrating with some pretty iffy sound and interpretation on some discs, but you really can't go wrong at jpc's price of 5 euros (about the same in dollars) for the following: Beethoven piano sonatas with Ortiz, Beethioven triple concerto and piano cto #4, Berlioz symphonie fantastique, Bizet symphony in C, Rodrigo guitar concertos, Debussy piano works, Franck symphony, Gorecki symphony (wow), Haydn symphonies (several discs worth, with Glover and Sanderling), Mendelssohn symphonies 3 & 5, Mozart clarinet concerto, Mozart piano sonatas (2 discs, each with O'Hara), Orff's Carmina Burana, Satie piano works, Schubert and Schumann piano works (again with O'Hara) and a disc of English music for strings.
If you search this site under Membran, you'll see which have had food reviews from others who've listened to more of them than me.
For a cheap and very good (although not great) Beethoven symphonies set you might like to try Kurt masur on Pentatone.
cpo discs are often very good indeed and, if you give em a month after release, can inevitably be found on amazon (through caiman and other sellers) at about half price.
If in doubt about the expense of a new SACD for a work you're not sure about, there are some STUNNING bargains on ordinary old cd of really GREAT performances from the past half century which can often be found on ebay or amazon and elsewhere really cheaply.
And if you want help with them, then there are some great rough guides to recordings incl. the Penguin guide. Or borrow them, guides and all from your local library, if you have one that stocks classical music.
best wishes, B
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Post by raffells June 26, 2006 (20 of 24)
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brenda said:
Memberan can be very frustrating with some pretty iffy sound and interpretation on some discs, but you really can't go wrong at jpc's price of 5 euros , Rodrigo guitar ), Orff's Carmina Burana, English music for strings.
If you search this site under Membran, you'll see which have had food reviews from n there are some great rough guides to recordings incl. the Penguin guide. Or borrow them, guides and all from your local library, if you have one that stocks classical music.
best wishes, B
Memberan B.... A Fruedean slip ?
Just to add to the list of Members ! items You can add the Bernstein and C Davis discs as well as that Latin American one which is probably the best.They also do a "mixed" Mozart which could be interesting for him.
I would add the following link of out top 100 items though I hope he doesnt go searching for the original thread ?
http://www.musica.co.uk/classical100worksUK.htm
from there you can find the link to less interesting American top 100..I should add that any he doesnt like could be sold on Ebay in the USA for what he pays originally?..postage from JPC is fixed price..
Only kidding.
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