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AmonRa said:
It is mathematical fact that all frequencies below Nyquist frequency are perfectly described
This is where my questions arise. I looked into the theoretical conditions for Shannon-Nyquist frequency. The conditions for two samples per wave are: perfect samples and never changing wave. This is never true in sound recording. Samples are never perfect, there is always so called white noise, and waves change continuously. Waves from human singing much more than waves from acoustic instruments. But there are thousands of samples per second, so the real question is, how imperfect is the sampling. Most likely it is quite near perfect, but definitely not absolute perfect.
To get more insight in this process, I once did a very simple and basic mathematical simulation of sound recording and playback. From data on the typical behaviour of instruments in producing tones and harmonics (overtones) I made a mathematical equation by adding sinuses of the tones and overtones. The result was calculated in time intervals and rounded to simulate pcm recording. With the result I did a very basic fourieranalysis to simulate the working of a dac and to recover the information on the tones and overtones. The results were near perfect, as to be expected. Then, to simulate reverberation, I added sinuses with the same frequencies of overtones, but slightly out of phase and with a much smaller amplitude. The results of the fourieranalysis where somewhat amazing. Especially the higher frequencies started shifting, both in amplitude and phase.
Ofcourse I understand a very simple simulation does not reflect the compexity of real life, certainly not if I made basic misinterpretations on sound behaviour. But usually there is some relection of the simulation in real life. The question then is how much. Enough to explain the, not only by me, heard differnces between pcm and dsd?
So, please think over the following statement:
"The need for dithering proves that a bit-perfect recording in pcm can not reproduce a perfect analogue copy of the recorded original analogue wave pattern."
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Post by AmonRa April 9, 2014 (72 of 91)
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Two points:
1) Describes perfectly all frequencies BELOW the Nyquist frequency. Not AT the Nyquist frequency, that is self evident. That is why 44100 is used to capture audio up to 20000 Hz or slightly higher. It is pointless to ponder how sampling behaves at the Nyquist frequency, it is not sampled with PCM.
2) Waveform is described perfectly WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE SAMPLE DEPTH. Of course there are distortions at the lowest levels, that is why we try to use higher sample depths like 24 bits. That is the practical limit with hardware, thermal noise prevents sampling of the lowest signals, best we can get at the moment is about 22 bits worth of DR and there really is no way around that. In practice even 16 bits provide more DR than anyone can produce or reproduce in real life, if talking about music, not gunshots. Dithering is a neat way to do away with sampling distortions and add DR, so why not uses it, it works. With 24 bit sampling it is not needed, there is already more DR than needed.
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Post by AmonRa April 9, 2014 (73 of 91)
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Ad Rhenum said:
pcm can not reproduce a perfect analogue copy of the recorded original analogue wave pattern."
Nothing can, thank God digital methods do it about a million times better (60dB) than analog tape.
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Post by Iain April 9, 2014 (74 of 91)
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Ubertrout said:
Thanks for the post. It's exactly what I expected. Since no-one is offering compressed DSD downloads to my knowledge, the file size of the .ISO is only trivially larger than what the uncompressed stereo DSD files are. In this light, the complaints on this thread are rendered all the more peculiar...it really does just seem like some folks being grumpy.
In fairness, though, it might be good for Pentatone to add information to its site that would explain the various options for playing back the .ISO file. I didn't see such a page when I looked, but I may have missed it.
And thank you for offering stereo and MCH in such an efficient format. I'm still purchasing my Pentatone discs as SACDs, but this narrows the incentives substantially.
Use either Nero Burning ROM or the free ImgBurn programmes to extract the DSD DFF/DSF files from the downloaded ISO image file:
http://www.nero.com/
http://www.imgburn.com/
Files only need to be extracted once and you're done. Simple.
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Iain,
I understand. I'm suggesting that Pentatone might want to put that on their website, or possibly consider developing their own software based on the open-source software that's out there.
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Post by Chris April 9, 2014 (76 of 91)
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Iain said:
Use either Nero Burning ROM or the free ImgBurn programmes to extract the DSD DFF/DSF files from the downloaded ISO image file:
http://www.nero.com/
http://www.imgburn.com/
Files only need to be extracted once and you're done. Simple.
Thanks for the links Iain,
but In my case using macbook pros,it seems I would have to pay 109,99 dollars on top of the 30€ including the cleverly hidden VAT ??? for the ZIP download to actually be able to play a DSD download from Pentatone via the system I am using.
And since when is EU VAT applicable when buying from Singapore which I first attempted?
The other free solution you suggest,img.burn seems to be for pcs only and I have mac computers because I don't want to use windows.
So for me what Pentatone offers as DSD masterfiles ie isos is still not a very palatable solution for me.
I still only want the stereofiles and I want them in a natively recorded actually without need for conversion or unpacking on the fly ,playable format ie dff or dsdf.
Moreover I am far from alone wishing exacly this.
Jon suggested Pentatone needs to do a proper market research, and I certainly aggree with him.
All other sites selling actual DSD masterfiles are offering,not a compressed iso format needed for authoring an SACD,but of no use at all for me.
They are selling the native dff or dsdf files ie the real masterfiles not a compressed version of them.
The difference in size between the actual original dff masterfile and the stereo iso is according to Pentatone only some 20%,making it even more unneccessary imo to force isos on everyone.
As far as I am concerned it is still as if I have to buy both a jacket and trousers in one expensive,buy all or nothing deal,when all I need and want are the trousers!
As Kal initially said in the other thread "something is funny here". They have the actual masterfiles but are not selling them,why?
I don't like it when suppliers stubbornly compromise and put their own needs and conveniences above that of their prospective customers.
Nor do I like companies that deliberately put most of the burdens on the customers!
Someone here not so wisely,said "to hell with downloads" I say:To hell with compromise.
Downloads ARE the future of high quality music delivery. As Jared puts it :music lovers can finally actually play their music at exactly the same quality it was orginally recorded at.
That and nothing less than that,is what downloads at their best have to offer.
And to such wonderful prospects already long a reality for me personally I can only say "Halleluja"
Regarding Pentatone's stand,I reiterate,when everybody else can do it right. Why can't PENTATONE also do it right????
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Chris said:
Thanks for the links Iain,
but In my case using macbook pros,it seems I would have to pay 109,99 dollars on top of the 30€ including the cleverly hidden VAT ??? for the ZIP download to actually be able to play a DSD download from Pentatone via the system I am using.
The other free solution you suggest,img.burn seems to be for pcs only and I have mac computers because I don't want to use windows.
Try this: http://www.sonore.us/apps2.html
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Post by Iain April 10, 2014 (78 of 91)
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Kal Rubinson said:
Try this: http://www.sonore.us/apps2.html
... or this:
http://www.cirlinca.com/index.htm
... it's compatible with MAC OSX under Vmware Fusion, whatever that means.
It's half the price of Nero, but they allow for a 30 day free trial period.
I've used this for several years and it's quite reliable since v3.3. I'm currently running v4.3, BTW.
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Chris said:
Another option is SACD_Extract. It's free and runs on Windows and Mac.
Whatever that program's origins, its use for extracting DSD files from legitimately purchased iso files from Pentatone is legal.
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Post by Chris April 11, 2014 (80 of 91)
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No offence and thanks everybody for links and the advice given.
Helpful people like you is one of the many reasons I post here.
But in this case I still think it is really up to the label/provider,Pentatone to deliver a product where all this advice would not be needed at all.
Pentatone initiated this thread asking for opinions but they have only responded to praise so far.
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