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"But via my super-revealing Benchmark preamp and HD 800 this old Living Stereo recording is clearly showing its age."
If you are listening on headphones, that is a big factor and, if you are not listening to the 3channel version (inevitably), you are missing a lot. I use this one at demos to show, first, the superiority of SACD to CD and, second, to show the superiority of 3channel to stereo. It never fails to convince the audience of my points.
As for the Grimm, I have no reason to doubt your assertions that it is, technically, a superior A/D convertor but that is only a small part of the results. I sat in on some of the Living Stereo work at SoundMirror, listening to the original tapes and the various tweakings and it confirmed to me that there is more to a remastering than just a transfer.
I will say that I am curious, intellectually, about how this compares with the Living Stereo SACD but, if I was a normal person (and who here is?), I would be content with the one I have.
P.S.: Is this new transfer the one that is offered on HDTracks? I have that, too, but only in stereo. :-)
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Chris said:
Hello Jon,
and sorry to have upset you too.
We all have our old favourites indeed.
De gustibus and all, But do they always stand the test of time SQ wise?
Imho this one does not quite do so.
...
Hence,nothing much wrong neither with my hearing nor equipment methinks.
Imho Reiner is about as cold here,as he was in Salome.
Drama yes,but sensuality doesn't seem to have been quite his thing.
..Regarding your questions about the Grimm,apart from via some SACDs,I have also heard it "raw" at sessions in Budapest and for some of the most realistic sound in modern digital recordings my favourites are the Mahler recordings made by Jared in Budapest.And from those the 1st and 4th made with the Grimm,in particular.
So yes I do think the Grimm is very good indeed.
ps Great shots from Burma!
Chris Hi
OK, the world is spinning on its axis again... phew.
My HD800s haven't arrived yet, so I have to defer untlimate judgement. But even then I would hesitate to pass comment without recourse to what my Martin Logans and Goldmund tell me; after all, speakers and headphones present sound in a radically different way!
For instance, you're never going to get holographic staging (one of the stand-out attributes of this recording) from cans, however superb they are.
What does the Reiner sound like on your LS 3/5s, BTW?
Thanks for your thoughts on the Grimm, and for your kind words about my Burma pix. They seem to be selling well..
Cheers
Jon
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Post by Chris July 4, 2013 (23 of 87)
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Kal Rubinson said:
If you are listening on headphones, that is a big factor and, if you are not listening to the 3channel version (inevitably), you are missing a lot. I use this one at demos to show, first, the superiority of SACD to CD and, second, to show the superiority of 3channel to stereo. It never fails to convince the audience of my points.
As for the Grimm, I have no reason to doubt your assertions that it is, technically, a superior A/D convertor but that is only a small part of the results. I sat in on some of the Living Stereo work at SoundMirror, listening to the original tapes and the various tweakings and it confirmed to me that there is more to a remastering than just a transfer.
I will say that I am curious, intellectually, about how this compares with the Living Stereo SACD but, if I was a normal person (and who here is?), I would be content with the one I have.
P.S.: Is this new transfer the one that is offered on HDTracks? I have that, too, but only in stereo. :-)
Dear Kal,
Nor do I doubt that it shows all the things you want to demonstrate at shows. But it is imo still a very good recording for its age yes, which does not quite compare with what is possible with the best technology of today.
It is definitely good enough to show the clear advantage of SACD over rbcd.
IMO all the Living Stereo SACDs are.
But performance wise there are several other recordings of this work, even some in clearly inferior sound that I prefer. Karajan's mid 60s LP is not really very good SQ wise, but the playing, WOW, the playing,is simply wonderful.
And yes I too am fully aware that A/D converters are just one vital ingredient in the soup.
DSD with other A/D converters too,can sound absolutely wonderful,and so can old analogue on LP or tape and hi res PCM too.
Regarding the Living Stereos,I was under the impression that they were just straight transfers from master tape to DSD with no particular tweakings involved??
And having heard the master tapes you have the only reference short of having been in the hall too, don't you?
But you are not that old are you?
Lets face it we can't get more than a pint out of a pint bottle as the British are fond of saying, ie the master is the master,period.
You can tweak and sweeten and God knows what, but you can't really improve on it.
PS Having heard Grimm "raw" takes both via headphones and in mch in the studio, and the live sound of the orchestra in the hall, I am also fully aware that mch opens up the sound and makes it more three dimensional than plain stereo via speakers.
In fact it convinced me so much that I am seriously thinking of getting a mch system.
OT ,Have you heard the KEF LS50s? And if so, what is your opinion of them?
I even heard someone with 800D speakers claim they were close to the same territory in some respects.
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Again, Chris, you are in the extreme minority on this. Countless others, including reviewers, audiophiles, casual listeners, etc., have counted this recording a masterpiece in sound and performance. You may complain based on your listening to this on headphones where hiss and the like are a perceived problem not heard on a regular system (of which most listen to).
And you may pooh, pooh old performances and sound as not standing up to current performance and sound requirements that you put on it, but I as a listener am extremely influenced by the performance of a piece, to which this recording trumps many others, including modern ones via Pentatone and Universal, many times over. There are 3 masterpieces in this work: Reiner, Beecham, and Stokowski. All others don't even come close to these three.
As for sound, I love it, especially in 3 channel and am still amazed that anyone who makes headphones their chief frame of reference can look at things an speak for the rest of us when listening on headphones and listening via speakers are completely different in all respects.
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samayoeruorandajin said:
As for sound, I love it, especially in 3 channel and am still amazed that anyone who makes headphones their chief frame of reference can look at things an speak for the rest of us when listening on headphones and listening via speakers are completely different in all respects.
Unless we were discussing a binaural recording. ;-)
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samayoeruorandajin said:
There are 3 masterpieces in this work: Reiner, Beecham, and Stokowski. All others don't even come close to these three.
Really? Have you listened to ALL others? There must be quite a few. I personally am partial to the Chung with the Orchestre de l'Opera Bastille on DG, a real diamond in the rough both as to sound and performance. Heard it? But then, I can't claim to have heard them all, as you apparently have.
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Post by jdaniel July 4, 2013 (27 of 87)
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I prefer Beecham's infinitely more evocative, perfumed reading and Ansermet's rough and ready PCO recording. Too much hooplah about the Reiner, both as a recording and a performance. IMHO, if there's one Reiner performance *and* recording that transcends time and place it's his Mahler Das Lied. Yet nary a word.
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Euell Neverno said:
Really? Have you listened to ALL others? There must be quite a few. I personally am partial to the Chung with the Orchestre de l'Opera Bastille on DG, a real diamond in the rough both as to sound and performance. Heard it? But then, I can't claim to have heard them all, as you apparently have.
Really.
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samayoeruorandajin said:
Really.
Oh, really
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Oh dear. As they used to say in Monty P, this is getting very silly.
Do behave.
Back on thread, asking twice the money for half the music - when the earlier Sound Mirrors are still very much knocking around - is a damn strange value proposition on the new Living Stereos by AP.
Given the classic nature of these recordings, however, they will still be worth getting if the sound is improved. However, having heard many of the original vinyls (LSCs and SBs), as well as various vinyl recuts and the Sound Mirror SACDs, I am not totally convinced that AP can actually deliver this.
We shall see very shortly.
Needless to say, whatever happens I will be hoovering up the new (for SACD) repertoire, come what may.
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