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Thanks for your reply Kveld.
In regards to music being subjective in its affective properties of course you are absolutely right. However, what I'm describing is something different. I'm talking about objective differences in each mastering, that are either there or not. A keyboard part or guitar part is there or it isn't.
And as I said before, apart from some incredibly minute details (ie almost inaudible) on the Yesyears- a synth appears very briefly during the first chorus on the title track; and a more encompassing synth on the Gastwirt,(in the seasoned witch section) there are no objective differences in terms of musical details that reveal more of the original arrangement. And from my own 'detective' work and some brief revelatory moments on one of the vinyl copies, the original arrangement must have been truly massive.
But what convinces me of what I'm saying is really the presence of details that are completely absent from any of the digital versions. Logic would dictate that the original vinyl is surely the one release we can say is close to the master tape, or the original vision of Yes, as it came first. We can say with confidence that an earlier good vinyl pressing is quite close to the master tape, while we are pretty much taking it on good faith if an audio engineer tells us that he's working from the master tape for a remastered CD in 2013.
Anyway I came across this post from the IMWAN website several months ago which seems to correlate somewhat with what I'm saying:
Geff R. wrote:
"I've been waiting for a version of CTTE with true high end sound since I was a teenager. I tried both MFSL & Japanese in the days of vinyl & every cd issue I've been able to get my paws on, but still waiting for a master that sounds like I hear it in my head (clear, full of detail, tons of dynamic range, little to no grain or hiss, & not at all screechy.) ."
That would maybe be the bootleg pre-final guide mix that made its way into collecting circles some years back. It's got scratch vocals, and some missing instrumental parts, but lordy, is it clearer and more detailed than the final mix.
You get an inkling of this from the bonus 'Siberian' track on the Rhino CD, another pre-final mix (but from which you can tell, they kept the rhythm tracks for the final version). The boot I'm talking about is the title track. Unfortunately there's an obvious tape head misalignment that kicks in during 'I Get Up I Get Down' and it never recovers fidelity from there on, so from there on through the whole last 'movement' it sounds like mud. But up to then: whoah.
It came to me bundled with a pre-final mix of 'The Remembering' -- also of considerable interest.
link to original post: http://www.imwan.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=57951&start=44&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
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Post by sylvian March 28, 2013 (52 of 205)
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rammiepie said:
//
BTW, Steve Wilson's 5.1 DVD~A remaster (and other configurations) of Hawkwind's 1975 classic Warrior On The Edge Of Time will be released on May 25th (and true MLP 96/24 5.1 & Stereo)!
And Steve is also working on the XTC catalogue in 5.1, as well.
Both Efforts are warmly welcomed here in Europe.
Also his latest solo opus: "The Raven....." is as a nice piece of work.
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Sylvian said :
Hoffmann had been probably presented not by the master tape but only master copy of the version used for vinyl pressings (or 3rd rate copy).
Chartreux said:
You get an inkling of this from the bonus 'Siberian' track on the Rhino CD, another pre-final mix (but from which you can tell, they kept the rhythm tracks for the final version). The boot I'm talking about is the title track. Unfortunately there's an obvious tape head misalignment that kicks in during 'I Get Up I Get Down' and it never recovers fidelity from there on, so from there on through the whole last 'movement' it sounds like mud. But up to then: whoah.
Unfortunately, as I said, I didn't get the chance to fully appreciate the LP's sound as my father's copy was too much played. And I'm having a hard time getting a replacement as France was not so receptive to this album when it was released, except for the elite music lovers (France is only capable of liking its own music IMO), so there are not much good copies to find, and imports are expensive.
Then, given the fact I only explored this album in the digital world, I'll wield my only known reference : what do you think of the 1994 Atlantic remaster by Joe Gastwirt ? It is very good IMHO but if you tell me a better one exists, I'll jump on it right away.
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Post by sylvian March 28, 2013 (54 of 205)
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Kveld-Úlfr said:
Unfortunately, as I said, I didn't get the chance to fully appreciate the LP's sound as my father's copy was too much played. And I'm having a hard time getting a replacement as France was not so receptive to this album when it was released, except for the elite music lovers (France is only capable of liking its own music IMO), so there are not much good copies to find, and imports are expensive.
Then, given the fact I only explored this album in the digital world, I'll wield my only known reference : what do you think of the 1994 Atlantic remastered by Joe Gastwirt ? It is very good IMHO but if a better one exists, I'll jump on it right away.
A: French do love thir music = nationaL HABIT.
b: Joe Gastwirt had done all of the YES back cat. from 1969-1978. I only own YESYEARS 4Cd compilation from 1991 and CTTE (SHM-Cd) WPCR-13246 Joe GASTWIRT had remastered which is praised as best sounding to date. All of the other albums I own are Rhinos by Bill INGLOT. Bill had done great work and also the packaging for Fragile/CTTE/Relayer are pretty impressive. YES album is best sounding from that series.
ALL of them contains certain amount of hiss in quiet places, while Hoffmann does not or only hardly listenable.
YESSYEARS I preferred to retain for a quite a while, cause it contains material not present on any other releses (mainly on 3rd disc) Vevey Parts 1&2 are not the same as the track on Rhino GFTO to name at least one example.
Being YES fan from my teens I am still waiting for the better sounding release that might come, cause all of the other valuable material from that era had already been released.....
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Just listened to the Gatstwirt now. It is definitely smoother and more natural sounding than the rhino or the audio fidelity version. There is certainly a little bit more revealed in Gastwirt in terms of texture, but you have to use headphones and pan all the way to the right or left to hear this. You really have to bust your eardrums to hear it but there are some large sounding synth parts in the "seasoned witch" section, but it is only just there -almost inaudible.
The version which appears on the Yesyears boxed set sounds to be the most detailed overall - relative to the other CD versions and of course this difference is almost imperceptible and incredibly minor. The resolution is also worse than the Gastwirt (possibly because I only have it as an mp3 though). Again you have to pan all the way to the left or right to extract any of these very faint details
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sylvian said:
CTTE SHM-Cd WPCR-13246 Joe GASTWIRT had remastered which is praised as best sounding to date.
Chartreux said:
Just listened to the Gatstwirt now. It is definitely smoother and more natural sounding than the rhino or the audio fidelity version. There is certainly a little bit more revealed in Gastwirt in terms of texture, but you have to use headphones and pan all the way to the right or left to hear this. You really have to bust your eardrums to hear it but there are some large sounding synth parts in the "seasoned witch" section, but it is only just there -almost inaudible.
The version which appears on the Yesyears boxed set sounds to be the most detailed overall - relative to the other CD versions and of course this difference is almost imperceptible and incredibly minor. The resolution is also worse than the Gastwirt (possibly because I only have it as an mp3 though). Again you have to pan all the way to the left or right to extract any of these very faint details
Then I think I should acquire the SHM-CD, as Sylvian suggested.
Still, I'm a bit sceptical as SHM-CDs, though I find them exceptionnal sonic qualities, tend to be assigned very loud and heavily compressed recent remasters.
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Post by sylvian March 28, 2013 (57 of 205)
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Kveld-Úlfr said:
Then I think I should acquire the SHM-CD, as Sylvian suggested.
Still, I'm a bit sceptical as SHM-CDs, though I find them exceptionnal sonic qualities, tend to be assigned very loud and heavily compressed recent remasters.
True to the last point Kveld. And if you happen to get CTTE on SHM - it is no way the waste of money, but I would not wish to push you in the realm of redundancy. GET This SACD rather than any of RBCD - because as you said, all of K2HD or SHM or BlueSpec CDs are ONLY RBCDs = 44.1kHz/16bit resolution which mostly sound strident and a bit harsh in comparison to advanced HD recordings.
AS Chartreux suggested: Gastwirt version is the best (but only in the way you would like to be presented with a copy of tape "remaster" which was remasterd in a way no-one pursue any longer now). I will still be recommending the Hoffmann mix but only for the price around 20 GBP that is the real price.
When you listen to 2nd and 3rd album by Peter Gabriel o nSACD theay Are both awful and therefore I will wait for another presentation in full resolution, and furthermore compare the tracks from 2nd and 3rd GABRIEL with his Shaking the tree counterparts - they are worst ever and this release should not happen.
I still hope that someone will do proper work, that this music deserves.Fingers crossed ....
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Re. Steve Wilson's remasters (King Crimson, ELP, Jethro Tull, Hawkwind, XTC) let me say:
What a waste to release them as DVD-As. I would love to have them on SACD.
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Post by Epsilon March 28, 2013 (59 of 205)
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Alexandre said:
Re. Steve Wilson's remasters (King Crimson, ELP, Jethro Tull, Hawkwind, XTC) let me say:
What a waste to release them as DVD-As. I would love to have them on SACD.
I don't think it is a waste. Have you heard any of them? The only waste is when they are released in a low res format like Thick as a Brick.
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Epsilon said:
I don't think it is a waste. Have you heard any of them? The only waste is when they are released in a low res format like Thick as a Brick.
Agreed. It's time for a Universal Player........Alexandre!
At least Thick As A Brick has a fantastic 96/24 stereo MLP track but the DTS 5.1 doesn't sound too shabby, at least on my system.
Wilson works in PCM whether DVD~A or blu ray and doubt that will change in the foreseeable future.
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