Post by robstl February 17, 2006 (51 of 61)
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Peter said:
"And so on to the tumultuous conclusion. I'm going to turn a deaf ear to the added timpani and bass drum on the final crotchet." Edward Seckerson (Gramophone 3/89)
"The last "look-back" to the start of the work before the onslaught of the coda is as effective as the opening of the symphony with a climax big and eloquent. The coda itself is marvellous with fabulous playing from the Concertgebouw conveying a tremendous feeling of joy. I just wish Bernstein could have resisted hitting the accelerator in the closing pages. The insertion of the extra thwack from the bass drum on the final note might be as the result of a later insertion by Mahler himself on the score in the possession of the New York Philharmonic." Tony Duggan (Musicweb)
Great finds, Peter!
-Rob
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Wow, what an intelligent sounding bunch of Mahler buffs. Anyway, somebody made an observation about 5-string double basses. If I'm not mistaken, that's just one method with dealing with the occassional written notes that go below the low "E" - four lines below the bass stave. Since the vast majority of basses on the market are 4-string, a more programtic solution is to put an extention on the low E string. Basically, the player just reaches up and presses a button on the extention that lengthens the string to the desired note. I believe that they go down to the "C" or "Bb" below the low E. I don't think that they can play chromatically either (filling in the half steps). I might be wrong about that, because I'm sure that a low Eb does crop up once in blue moon. Anyway, if you see a funny looking extension on the low string of a double for, that's what it's for.
And yes, the bass drum thwack on the very last note of M1 is completely gratuitous from good, old Lenny. He did it on both of his commercial recordings. I believe it's on the 70's DVD version as well (VPO).
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Post by ramesh September 22, 2006 (53 of 61)
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Tempo Relationships in Mahler 5.
Heard the DVD of Bernstein's 1972 M5. ( Both my original and replacement DVD had a flaw after the first movement, where the disc pauses before the second movement. Not a layer change. I could only start the second movement by pressing 'pause' then 'play'.)
Here are the timings for the First and fourth ( adagietto ) movements. Bernstein VPO DVD 1973: 12'28, 12'10. Bernstein CD VPO 1987 : 14'32, 11'13. SACD Abbado BPO 1993 12'36, 9'02. SACD Zander 2000 12'15, 8'33.
There has been plenty of critical ink spilled on how slow the adagietto should be, but nothing that I can see on the first movement, which almost by definition, sets the pace of the symphony.
The first recording I had of this was Karajan's on low fi cassette, followed by Barbirolli, which I found rather dull. However, I got Bernstein's VPO CD when it was first issued. I was bowled over by it, although now I feel the best part of the issue was the serigraph front cover art. Bernstein's 1987 first movement sounds, well, too funereal. His Unitel DVD has the same concentration, but flows at a more intense pace. It would appear that the critical consensus is for the first movement to last around 12 to 12.5 minutes. Most seem to perform the adagietto in under 10 minutes, except Karajan and Bernstein. Abbado's 9 minute adagietto is wonderful, spacious yet not wallowing.
Now that I have heard many more M5s in the concert hall and on disc, I can't relate to Bernstein's dragging trudge in the first movement in 1987. His adagietto apparently is even slower in 1972 than 1987, but for me it isn't as discomfiting as the almost turgid 1987 first movement. Perhaps this is because we have been conditioned to accept expansive slow movements, but not the same for opening a symphony. I haven't heard Karajan for 20 years, but I remember very biting triplet rhythms which compensated for any slowish tempi.
Yet, how much of this has to do with extra musical associations? The first movement of Mahler 5 is marked, 'Trauermarsch', but there are no standard tempo imdications. The adagietto is marked, 'sehr langsam', yet Gilbert Kaplan contends that Mahler conducted this in under 9 minutes. Presumably Alma would have flown to Walter Gropius ( what a good name for a lecher!) in desperation if Gustav dragged out the magic potion any longer.
I also see odd criticisms of Beethoven's Pastoral along the lines of, 'Klemperer's Philharmonia performance is far too slow, because Beethoven describes happy feelings on walking through the country'. Haintink's LSO LIve Beethoven 6 is swift in the first two movements, but it doesn't sound as streamlined as Karajan in 1962. 'Scene by the Brook' doesn't say anything about tempi. Streams can be slow or fast. The swift tempo Karajan had in the second movement of the Pastoral in 1983 was for me one of the best movements in his digital Beethoven set. A swiftly done opening movement of Beethoven's Pastoral, convincingly performed, seems to logically set the stage for a similarly swift second movement. This also seems to be the case with Toscanini in his BBC recording.
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Peter said:
Well, here we are again.
How much Mahler do you have? Are you embarrassed about the amount of Mahler in your collection? Do have a compulsion to buy all Mahler recordings as soon as they're issued?
Too many to list here.....between redbook and SACD?? likely at least 50 recordings of the Mahler symphonies. The one symphony that dominates my collection is the 5th, with 14 currently owned (both redbook and SACD) and when the MTT Mahler 5 comes out it will be my 15th recordings of the 5th.
That does not include the number of times I have heard the symphonies live...well I have not heard the 8th live, per say, I did perform and record the 8th with Shaw and Atlanta for Telarc in 1991...I was in one of the two choirs from Ohio State.
To conclude, I make NO apologies for the large number of Mahler symphonies!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Cheers,
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Post by ramesh August 4, 2007 (55 of 61)
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I'm 'Mahler Seconding' this thread for the discussion of the upcoming Sony Bernstein NYPO/LSO/ISO Mahler cycle.
For starters, I presume these are hybrids, unlike the current Mahler 1 Sony SACD with Bernstein, which is single layer. I have never heard the NYPO Mahler 2, but I remember that one Gramophone reviewer thought it was ghastly.
The Columbia LP of Bernstein's adagio from M 10 couple with Baker in Kindertotenlieder was I think the first Mahler record I ever bought. It's a great performance of the adagio, although it is based on the original Krenek edition.
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ramesh said:
I'm 'Mahler Seconding' this thread for the discussion of the upcoming Sony Bernstein NYPO/LSO/ISO Mahler cycle.
For starters, I presume these are hybrids, unlike the current Mahler 1 Sony SACD with Bernstein, which is single layer. I have never heard the NYPO Mahler 2, but I remember that one Gramophone reviewer thought it was ghastly.
The Columbia LP of Bernstein's adagio from M 10 couple with Baker in Kindertotenlieder was I think the first Mahler record I ever bought. It's a great performance of the adagio, although it is based on the original Krenek edition.
Huh? What?? Sony's reissuing the Bernstein Mahler cycle on SACD? Did I miss something?
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Post by Daland August 5, 2007 (57 of 61)
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rosenkavalier817 said:
Huh? What?? Sony's reissuing the Bernstein Mahler cycle on SACD? Did I miss something?
See unconfirmed thread. I reported it there, but hardly anyone seems to take an interest in the Bernstein cycle or in the fact that Sony are re-issuing classic recordings on SACD again.
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Post by ramesh November 28, 2007 (58 of 61)
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I have received these Bernstein Columbia recordings on Sony hybrid SACD- 7, 8, Das Lied, Kindertotenlieder & Adagio of 10.
All specifically state SACD stereo and 5 channel surround.
There is no mention on how many tracks the original performances were recorded in. There's actually no technical data at all.
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Post by robstl November 28, 2007 (59 of 61)
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ramesh said:
I have received these Bernstein Columbia recordings on Sony hybrid SACD- 7, 8, Das Lied, Kindertotenlieder & Adagio of 10.
All specifically state SACD stereo and 5 channel surround.
There is no mention on how many tracks the original performances were recorded in. There's actually no technical data at all.
Thanks for the info, ramesh. Strange how the Sony Japan website (translated by Babelfish) describes how they tracked down the original 3 channel masters, then the discs state 5 channel surround.
Guess the proof will be in the listening -- can't wait to hear your report!!
-Rob
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Post by Beagle December 4, 2007 (60 of 61)
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Further to Alma Schindler, aka Mrs Mahler-Gropius-Werfel. A Shostakovich scholar recently shocked me with fresh (to my ears) gossip: Alma wasn't JUST a student of Zemlinsky!* Here is the updated list:
ARCHITECT
--Walter Gropius
ARTIST
--Gustav Klimt
--Oskar Kokoschka
AUTHOR
--Walter Gropius
--Gerhart Hauptman
--Franz Werfel
COMPOSER
--Alban Berg
--Gustav Mahler
--Arnold Schönberg
--Alexander Zemlinksy
MUSICIAN
--Enrico Caruso
PRIEST
--Johannes Hollnsteiner
Did she get religious in her later years?
_____________
*I've been on a Zemlinsky spree for several weeks.
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