Post by ninogui January 26, 2011 (121 of 171)
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Hello all from sunny Lisbon!
I am new here but have been lurking for some time now
I have an issue related not only to pqls but also about the true capability of pioneer dv-58/elite vsx-33 being able to properly achieve dsd to analog streaming on hdmi
to avoid filling up this thread, please take a few minutes of your time and look into my post (also ninogui user over there), my findings and what is being done about it
http://www.avforums.com/forums/pioneer-products/1398466-dv-lx50-vsx-2020-dsd-pcm-weird-problem-not.html#post13899954
and tell me what you make of it all!
thks in advance
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Post by Merganser January 26, 2011 (122 of 171)
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Polarius T said:
(1) In what way "off the mark"?
(2) By a home listener/audio enthusiast? Like what?
(3) It simply means what you just claimed isn't true: that, relatively speaking, that is the part of the system where you can do the least to "improve sound" ("tweak," "updgrade," "mod," etc.).
Cheers,
PT
Hi PT,
(1) It all starts with the source. Garbage in equals garbage out. I have never heard good speakers sound their best when fed garbage, but I have heard so-so speakers sound pretty damn good when fed well.
(2) Upgrades to the power supply caps and diodes, better signal path and output caps, a better clock, better op-amps (if so equipped), damping of the case and transport, etc. will make a dramatic improvement.
(3) See number 1.
BTW, I didn't use the full quotes because I was informed, "Quoted text too long. Trim or delete it. Thanks!"
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Post by pacwin January 27, 2011 (123 of 171)
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ninogui said:
Hello all from sunny Lisbon!
I am new here but have been lurking for some time now
I have an issue related not only to pqls but also about the true capability of pioneer dv-58/elite vsx-33 being able to properly achieve dsd to analog streaming on hdmi
to avoid filling up this thread, please take a few minutes of your time and look into my post (also ninogui user over there), my findings and what is being done about it
http://www.avforums.com/forums/pioneer-products/1398466-dv-lx50-vsx-2020-dsd-pcm-weird-problem-not.html#post13899954
and tell me what you make of it all!
thks in advance
According to the elite vsx-33 manual
"This receiver can only play back Dolby Digital, PCM (32 kHz to 192 kHz), DTS (including DTS 96/24) and WMA9 Pro digital signal formats.
The compatible signals via the HDMI terminals are: Dolby Digital, DTS, WMA9 Pro, PCM (32 kHz to 192 kHz), Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus,
DTS-EXPRESS, DTS-HD Master Audio and SACD."
There is the use of the phrase "compatible signals" and "only". So it can receive certain signal types but in reality only playback a subset after some kind of conversion transcoding. It is DSD compatible but in reality it needs PCM to make the analogue happen.
The manual (p.14)also says that on the digital display:
DSD PCM – Light during DSD (Direct Stream Digital)
to PCM conversion with SACDs.
This is why when you play back DSD from the player you get both DSD PCNM lighting up and not DSD by itself.
I would hazard a guess then and say that it is converting the DSD to 88.2 PCM and not decoding DSD->Analogue in the receiver, as it might in a mid range purpose dedicated SACD player
This is not that uncommon in the lower end receivers. The Onkyo TX-SR606 as an example converts multichannel DSD to six channels of 44.1/24 bit PCM. It doesn't have enough DSP brain power to do multichannel DSD or high bit rate PCM from incoming DSD. However the manual doesnt spell this out to you. This kind of receiver is better off being sent PCM from an HDMI player like the new Sony players that can send 176.4/24 PCM because it can digest upto 192/24 PCM multichannel. This also presumably keeps down chip counts and licence fees.
The definitive way to understand the capabilities of your HDMI receiver is to attach the receiver to an HDMI or compatible (DVI/Displayport) preferably laptop computer and interrogate the receiver with a piece of software which can report the EDID of the HDMI receiver (or monitor or whatever kind of HDMI sink you want a report on). This will give you reams of detail about audio and video capabilities of the receiver. There are several free bits of software that can do it. One I have used is Monitor Asset Manager http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm.
The wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_display_identification_data
gives examples of the kind of detail you can expect and also points to Macintosh software utilities.
Your player can output DSD or LPCM depending on the settings.
You have threee options: connect player analogue out to receiver analogue in,
export PCM from the player to the receiver and then to analogue, export DSD to the receiver and then convert to PCM then to analogue. Try all three and see which you prefer sound wise. I doubt with this gear that you are missing anything substantial sound wise by not being able to convert DSD to analogue in the receiver and I also doubt there will be much difference between the analogue stage of the player versus the analogue stage of the receiver at these price points. I also suppose that PCM out from the player is also 88.2/24 the sane as the internal conversion in the receiver but it could be higher
88.2/24 is a perfectly nice audio stream. The recording skill and quality has more bearing on enjoyment. The amplification speakers and room etc are probably more important. Many SACD's are prepared from these types of PCM streams in the first place. Only if you have known DSD recordings (or DXD recordings) especially of the direct cut kind will you be, in theory, getting less than what you paid for.
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Post by ninogui January 28, 2011 (124 of 171)
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Hello pacwin
thks a lot for your details
A lot of food for thought!
To add to my confusion vsx-lx53/33/2020 states in pag. 49
"
Using Stream Direct
Use the Stream Direct modes when you want to hear the
truest possible reproduction of a source. All unnecessary
signal processing is bypassed, and you’re left with the
pure analog or digital sound source. Processing differs
depending on the input signal and whether or not
surround back speakers are connected. For details, see
Auto Surround, ALC and Stream Direct with different input
signal formats on page 96.
"
so... "you´re left with the pure analog"?
For not so highly pioneer wise experienced users all the jargon can be very misleading, and this probably means 99% of th users, including me
Also a user was kind enough to investigate for me and this receiver uses TI/BB/ 1691 dac which is not dsd capable
Interesting enough when feeding optical to the dvd source on the receiver/pure direct and with the very same dv-58 player in plain stereo/pure mode (no 5.1 analog in the receiver and that´s what I was affraid of) I get the status "analog 192Khz" from sacd. I wonder what the sonic experience this presents versus only the front stage speakers in dsd->pcm 88Khz
Also I wonder what sonic perceived quality the combo dv-58/elite vsx-33 can present in dsd-pcm 88Khz versus my previous dv-696/vsx-d510/unknown freq. status which had the so missed (by me) 5.1 analog inputs
Well as said somewhere else life used to be simple.. not anymore.!
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Post by pacwin January 28, 2011 (125 of 171)
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Using Stream Direct
Use the Stream Direct modes when you want to hear the
truest possible reproduction of a source. All unnecessary
signal processing is bypassed, and you’re left with the
pure analog or digital sound source. Processing differs
depending on the input signal and whether or not
surround back speakers are connected. For details, see
Auto Surround, ALC and Stream Direct with different input
signal formats on page 96.
Stream Direct is just marketing jargon for 'there is a switch which will stop all digital signal processing on your PCM data' in other words surround processing, stereo spread effects, frequency adjustments, room modes etc etc. The frustrating part is that 'Stream Direct' sounds kind like 'Direct Stream Digital' but as you pointed out the DAC cannot understand DSD data.
Again I wouldnt be sweating about this, sending multichannel PCM to the receiver over HDMI sounds like the best you can do.
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Post by ninogui January 28, 2011 (126 of 171)
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correct.
And I got jargonfooled.!
The dac is not dsd capable and they didn´t even bother to include analog 5.1 inputs. smart(axes)
on a near future when something like hdmi 2.0 appears most likely you will have receivers with one input on the back and that´s it lol
time to start messing with mcacc maybe that stops (partially) my weeping and whining.!
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pacwin said:
Stream Direct is just marketing jargon for 'there is a switch which will stop all digital signal processing on your PCM data' in other words surround processing, stereo spread effects, frequency adjustments, room modes etc etc. The frustrating part is that 'Stream Direct' sounds kind like 'Direct Stream Digital' but as you pointed out the DAC cannot understand DSD data.
Yes, it's probably the same thing that's called something like "Pure Direct" on on other brands' receivers.
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ninogui said:
they didn´t even bother to include analog 5.1 inputs. smart(axes)
That's right. The DV-58AV has analog 5.1 outputs but beween its multitude of connectors the VSX-33 doesn't have analog 5.1 inputs. The model above it, SC-35, does -- at $600 extra...
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Post by ninogui January 29, 2011 (129 of 171)
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I would gladly wave out the multi-zone capability for the analog ins...
and $600 difference for the SC-35 that´s probably valid in the US of A.. Back here in old southern europe that amounts to almost double that figure unfortunately
but a nice photo is´nt it lol
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ninogui said:
I would gladly wave out the multi-zone capability for the analog ins...
and $600 difference for the SC-35 that´s probably valid in the US of A.. Back here in old southern europe that amounts to almost double that figure unfortunately
but a nice photo is´nt it lol
I find multi - zone capability to be a total nonsense
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