Post by rammiepie November 17, 2010 (91 of 102)
|
|
Or, Nagraboy, you might want to consider the Stereophile Class A recommended Parasound P7 pre~amp which is an analogue~only pre which comes with two sets of 7.1 analogue inputs and can output either balanced or unbalanced pre-outs to your amps. I paid $2200 (US) for mine and I now have two.
|
|
|
Post by rammiepie November 17, 2010 (92 of 102)
|
|
Nagraboy said:
Yes, I've read all about the Playback designs MPS-5, it seems very impressive! However, I didn't mention it in my last post because there is no UK importer yet. I asked the company last week about UK availability and they told me no-one is interested in being the distributer! Even Riccardo from Absolute sounds was very uninterested...
Basically, if I wanted one of those I'd have to go to Belgium or Holland to get it! I live in hope that someone sees the importance of the machine over here!
As far as I know, only Acoustic Sounds in the States is a distributor but I have yet to read a review (or pricing) on the multi~channel version.... I am also investigating the unit because Michael Fremer (Mr. Analog from Stereophile) highly recommends it and has compared it favorably to the $80k dCs Scarlatti (which has no m/c aspirations)!
Another consideration is the NuForce OPPO BDP83 which has stellar analogue outputs. It plays m/c SACDs and DVD~As superbly and its blu~ray replication is flawless but unfortunately, it falls short in RBCD playback. As it lists for $1295 (and is also available from Acoustic Sounds) it won't break the bank.
|
|
|
Post by Nagraboy November 17, 2010 (93 of 102)
|
|
dcramer and rammiepie,
Thanks for the advice and tips. There are so many ways to go MCH, it's slightly confusing. Digital or analogue source connection? AV receivers or separates? MCH analogue pre-power or even 3 integrated amps like KI used!
I briefly read Kal Rubinson's review of the McIntosh C45 MCH line-stage and noted the concerns about bass management with a MCH analogue pre. In the past when I had (briefly) a Sony SCD-XA9000ES MCH player, I'd imagined this would have been the most natural progression from a 2CH setup. Just change your preamp to the MCH type and add more poweramps. It seems there are more complications...
Incidently, the Sony 9000ES came from disbeliever!!! We never met, my mum and auntie picked it up for me - what a coincidence dcramer.
Speaking of which, that newer Sony player - the 5400ES - seemed good, but is now discontinued in the UK I think?
I'll investigate the Parasound, do you find there are problems with bass management with it? I've never had problems in my 2CH setup, should I have no problems with MCH too?
|
|
|
Post by dcramer November 17, 2010 (94 of 102)
|
|
rammiepie, thanks for the reminder about the Parasound. Definitely worth considering for those who wish to combine two- and multi-channel systems without having to buy separate preamps/processors.
|
|
|
Post by rammiepie November 17, 2010 (95 of 102)
|
|
dcramer said:
rammiepie, thanks for the reminder about the Parasound. Definitely worth considering for those who wish to combine two- and multi-channel systems without having to buy separate preamps/processors.
I will be perfectly frank about the Parasound P7. Bass Management ONLY works in stereo. Since I use it with full range speakers it is not a problem and is an exceptional product, but for those considering using it with a subwoofer for m/c applications, they will have to look elsewhere.
It is also incredible as a two channel pre~amp but its total lack of HDMI and DSP/room correction may deter prospective buyers.
But for pure analogue applications, especially since DSD will be pure ALL the way to the amps, it is still a very viable contender.
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm just not a fan of surround sound. I am totally immersed in superb quality pure stereo, and more distracted by surround. I'm also not at all swayed by the new 3D hype.
In my opinion, now that people have a taste of better sound by means of blu ray over DVD, they're awakening to the fact that there is something better than CD..... and hopefully their pursuit will take them to SACD.
But people are under the impression SACD is dead. Even people that work in music shops. It most certainly is not! not all the while there are discerning ears.
|
|
|
Post by trntbl November 18, 2010 (97 of 102)
|
|
rammiepie said:
I will be perfectly frank about the Parasound P7. Bass Management ONLY works in stereo. Since I use it with full range speakers it is not a problem and is an exceptional product, but for those considering using it with a subwoofer for m/c applications, they will have to look elsewhere.
I think it is kind of strange that many audiophiles listen happily to wideband or bookshelf speakers and don't miss very low frequencies at all. But when we speak about speakers we take for granted that bass response must go to 20 Hz, or a little bit lower if possible.
My point is, bass management is nice but not a must, even if you don't have full range speakers. There is no need to dismiss preamp or player because of missing bass-management. I have 3 speakers out of 5 that are somewhat bass-limited (they go to 60-80 Hz). I have tried subwoofer and bass-management, but in the end it wasn't worth the complexity and now I drive everything full range.
|
|
|
Post by hiredfox November 18, 2010 (98 of 102)
|
|
This has been one of the better threads lately and the next poster will take it to 100. Maybe time to give closure. Anybody who wanted to contribute has done so by now - is there anything else to say?
Ground control to Master Zeus.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yes, you can do Mch using an analog controller. You can also do it without a subwoofer or without a center channel. However, I am rather convinced that a digital controller with a sub and center channel is the best way to go these days. But, you can always build to this in stages to spread out the investment.
The very best system I have ever heard, tailspn's, uses a Meiner deck and Mch DAC, passive volume control and 5 huge monoblock powered Sound Labs electrostats with extensive room treatments and no sub. So, it contradicts what I have just said. But this is a space consuming and very costly solution that is unobtainable by most mere mortals. Yes, tailspn, you are indeed a god among Mch audiophiles and a terrific and modest guy to boot.
I think you can obtain almost all of the sound quality of tailspn's system for a fraction of the investment with numerous advantages in space requirements, bass response via a subwoofer, avoidance of the complexities of room treatments, and other features.
Kal Rubinson's excellent article at the link below gives a superb treatise on analog vs. digital controllers:
http://stereophile.com/musicintheround/music_in_the_round_44/index.html
If analog sound is still important to you and your digital controller is not totally satisfying in that regard, you can always bypass the controller for analog listening, as Kal points out. In the worst case, that might entail reconnecting the two main channel amp interconnects to your existing analog line stage. But, if you are anything like me and other audiophiles I know, Mch will sweep you off your feet to the point that analog stereo is simply no longer a prioity. I listen to essentially none at this point.
Subwoofers are ridiculously easy to set up with a digital controller. And, they can deliver bass response beyond your wildest dreams. Sonic integration of subs by this means is extraordinary, particularly coupled with DSP EQ, such as Audyssey or ARC. None of the difficulties in integrating subs in the analog domain are encountered via digital bass management. None of the transparency-reducing analog crossover artifacts are imposed on the sound - been there, done that. A sub will also allow you to use much smaller speakers, even for the main channels, with great success. This can be considerably more economical than using larger speakers and amps, with little sonic downside. Just get 60-Hz capable speakers and cross them over at 80 Hz in the controller.
It is clear to me and to others that a center channel is quite important for best sound. Phantom center imaging can suffice, but a discrete center is clearly best. Groot Geluid of Polyhymnia previously commented that the center not only improves imaging, but tonality, as well. No recording/mastering team would dream of using a phantom center channel. 3 identical speakers up front is probably optimal, but with EQ voicing the center identically to all other channels, I think a dissimilar center can come quite close, perhaps indistiguishably, to that - yes, even horizontal home theater speakers.
Those who are budget constrained can still get most of the magic of Mch using a digital receiver rather than a prepro. The amps and the long speaker wires required by this may be the only significant compromise. The same essential features are all there in a receiver, though.
Yes, it is all seemingly complex, at first. But, today's digital controllers and receivers can make this process much simpler. Speaker distances no longer matter. Not that you can tell, but my surrounds are slightly asymetric. Only the respective angles matter, and angular symetry is important. For SACD, stick as closely as you can to the ITU standard of 0, +/- 30 and +/- 110 degress relative to front dead center. But, it's not totally critical. Tailspn and I both depart from this slightly. Run the auto calibration with the supplied mike, hook up the player via HDMI (cable quality is probably not significant), and you will be discovering a sonic realism you never imagined before.
|
|
|
Post by trntbl November 18, 2010 (100 of 102)
|
|
I think it is (once more) time to remind you that EQing different speakers to sound identical is not possible even in theoretical level.
|
|
