Post by Hercules August 31, 2010 (31 of 289)
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Ernani71 said:
In the 2007 study, it was SACD v. 44.1kHz/16 bit: "the Audio Engineering Society published the results of a year-long trial in which a range of subjects including professional recording engineers were asked to discern the difference between SACD and compact disc audio (44.1kHz/16 bit) under double blind test conditions." People still failed to hear the difference.
Hi Ernani71, can you quota which AES paper you referrin to? from the Wikipedia, the reference pointed to this:
"Audibility of a CD-Standard A/DA/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback"
I can't see the full text as I'm not AES member, the extract mentioned the Analog out from Hi-Rez Player was compared with the the playback chain of ADC/DAC at 16/44 resolution, the original audio signal still coming from same player, it's comparsion of difference resolutions, not SACD vs CD. The test was trying to prove human not really able to tell High Resolution with extra bandwidth and so called "handicapped" red book format, to defend redbook is good enough for audiophile and people will be happy to stay low-rez, even mp3.
My Questions: That Hi-Rez Player maybe DSD to PCM internally, and filter setting of the player output already capped just about 20Khz, as some of the audio equipment may be heated up rapidly and unstable when amplifying high frequency out of the they're designed bandwidth, manufacturer will tend to be conservation to avoid problem with selling their product.
And the recording materials and genre it does matters, If the SACD just upconverted from Analog or 16/44 materials, the source itself was bandwidth limited at source, like Norah Jones "Come away with me", the SACD will not give extra information but noise. And genre like rock and roll and Jazz will benefit from dynamic range,, while classical music especially orchestral music will benefited from dynamic range plus extra bandwidth.
Before the test, the output from the Hi-Rez player must be measured with Audio Precision Audio Analyser to made sure the filter setting is correct, and high frequency content also present at output, and multiple mix of music genre should be adapted in the test, if not, you may not able to tell DSD recording and mp3 copy at 96k bitrate of a toy tin-drum!
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hiredfox said:
Does the SE vesrsion of the Oppo have balanced analogue outputs or just single-ended? Also HDMI connectivity (?) - if so is that pure DSD or PCM via a digital processing
Just single ended RCA's. You can choose pure DSD conversion or DSD-PCM. There is no speaker distance or bass management in the DSD mode. Yes, there is also HDMI capable of transmitting DSD or PCM.
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Haven't got time to read the whole thread, but when people question what's so special about SACD, I think people forget the argument that arose from the genesis of SACD. That is, you can get audiophile level of playback using budget components because the technology does not have to concern itself with extractign EVERY BIT of data out of the disk, which is why you pay thousands for CD players that can do just that.
However, the future is in master-quality downloads and to a lesser extent, i.e. where video is required, Blu Ray.
And there is no reason why the downloads couldn't be DSD files.
The future may not be SACD, except for classical and amybe jazz listeners, but it certainly is bright. In the meantime, nothing brings more pleasure than SACD.
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Post by tailspn August 31, 2010 (34 of 289)
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+1
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michi said:
Very little is out on DVD-A. Nothing is being released on it anymore. That's not true with SACD.
Your choice is between 44.1/16 and DSD; not 176.4/24 and DSD.
[...]
Repeatedly I have to remind people that sound quality does not only manifest itself in immediate recognition A/B tests, but in the involvement you get 1/2 hr into a disc vs getting "fatigued" and turning it off. Not all differences are immediately recognizable.
A subtle difference is not an invalid difference.
[...]
Two very important points. I and others have commented on how SACD sounds so "clear". I find SACD much less fatiguing and can listen to SACDs for many hours.
I will add the theory that studio masters originaly recorded in DSD are recorded with greater care by the engineers. Even Redbook CD versions of DSD sources sound very good indeed [Stanley Clarke - Jazz In The Garden]. But why settle for a "crippled" version of a DSD source when the real McCoy is available on SACD? And in 5.1 surround!
I would like to add that Sony, the inventors of DSD/SACD, have always been hit over the head with any of their products (It is/was lonely being #1). Right or wrong, they are/were a large and easy target for bashing by their competitors and their minions. Add in license fees for SACD and enter the Anti-SACD studios.
Do yourself a favour and buy an Oppo player and some SACDs and audition them for yourself. If you are unhappy there is always eBay.
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If anyone has any doubts about SACD sound quality and its potential, I would refer them to either Linn SACD samplers, or Blue Coast SACD recorded usign their proprietary ESE system.
I think Blue Coast have abandoned SACD due to costs, and like Linn stated their intention to do so last year-ish in favour of 24-bit downloads (or master quality anyway).
Interestingly though, Linn released their 4th SACD sampler just a few months ago (March-ish).
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FunkyMonkey said:
Linn stated their intention to do so last year-ish in favour of 24-bit downloads (or master quality anyway).
Do you have a link for that? It's not quite how I remember the announcement - wasn't it the hi-fi division saying they weren't going to manufacture any more RBCD players any more?
Regards
PN
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Post by dobyblue August 31, 2010 (38 of 289)
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DSD said:
Original DSD and DXD Recordings are listed here: /dsd
In the Recording type it will specify if it is DSD or DXD. DXD is short for Digital eXtreme Definition which is 24 Bit 352.8kHz PCM
I think they're usually 32-bit no?
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Post by rognvaldr August 31, 2010 (39 of 289)
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Ernani71 said:
Petrus? Nope.
Your question also speaks to what Zeus said about not being academic. As a phenomenologist, I know that what matters is what you hear and experience, not what the numbers say. Anyhow, I'll be checking later to see if anybody has any advice for me regarding SACD players and particularly the OPPO, which I think is the one I want.
Well over a year ago I bought an Oppo 980h on Ebay for 75 euro. It sounds incredible. The small LCD info screen stopped working a month ago but that's just a minor inconvenience. I am more than happy with my Oppo. Would buy again anytime and would not hesitate to spend much more on it too!
Mike
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Post by rammiepie August 31, 2010 (40 of 289)
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Ernani71 said:
I debated getting a record player. My dad had a great vinyl-centered system, and I have great memories of that. But not too many new classical recordings are being issued on vinyl, so I decided against it.
The OPPO BDP-83 is one of the SACD players I'm thinking about getting. I read that universal disc players try to do too much and consequently sacrifice on sound, but the OPPO seems to be an exception. I was also thinking about the Pioneer PD-D6-J. I set $700 as my limit for a player.
What are the OPPO tweaks? By the way, I hear that taking a green marker and coloring the sides (rim) of your discs is a pretty good tweak for discs, strange as it may sound.
Tweaks I employ on the OPPO: Upgrade power cable, Shakti stone directly on top of drawer, Raise unit on brass points (off the rack on which it sits), $40 Sid Damper (from Music Direct) placed over disc before loading and I treat all my 5" optical discs with Lloyd Walker's Ultra~Vivid polish which has to be heard (and seen) to be believed and demagnetize the disc with Walker's Talisman (which can also double
to demagnetize one's speakers with amazing results).
Sounds complicated and expensive but no matter what player one chooses, above tweaks are IMO mandatory and will double or triple the capabilities of the OPPO BDP~83 (blu~rays look truly amazing with the polish, damper and demagnetizer).
BTW, I use to use the green ink pen but the Walker Ultra-Vivid is now applied to the playing side and sides of the disc and the relatively new formula developed by Lloyd Walker is simply the best and most effective polish for disc enhancement that I have yet heard (and I've tried them all). (the kit costs $90 but will treat over 500 5" discs).
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