Post by Epsilon April 13, 2010 (1 of 99)
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I am in search of a multichannel amplifier or AV receiver preferrably in the < $1200 price range with HDMI input for direct DSD stream plus an HDCD decoder (I hear you can feed the 20bit data stream of an HDCD into an amp even if your player is not compatible with the format and leave it to your amp to decode the extended 20bit content).
Specs of the Cambridge Audio Azur 650R mention MCH PCM input through HDMI but no DSD (or HDCD decoder for that matter).
I am not very knowledgable in this.
Any suggestions?
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Post by SMabille April 13, 2010 (2 of 99)
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Hi,
The best option is probably an OPPO BDP-80 multi format player that decode DSD and HDCD and can output 24bits/192Khz LPCM over HDMI and then find a receiver able to handle it (should be a lot easier to find than DSD)
Good luck.
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Post by AmonRa April 13, 2010 (3 of 99)
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Epsilon said:
Specs of the Cambridge Audio Azur 650R mention MCH PCM input through HDMI but no DSD (or HDCD decoder for that matter).
Maybe it interests you that Cambridge Audio Azur 650R uses exactly the same parts as Oppo BDP-80, which costs less than half of the new Cambridge player.
If you want to spend that much, Oppo BDP-83 would still be a bit cheaper, but it outputs DSD, has better audio DAC and much better video processing than Azur 650R (or Oppo BDP-80).
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I think the Onkyo TX-NR807 would suit for your needs for DSD decoding ($899 SRP) or Onkyo HT-RC180 ($1049 SRP) but I am not sure about HDCD. Similarly for 707, 608, HT-RC160, 508, 308 and maybe others in their range. Denon is curiously silent on the issue.
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I've kind of been wondering the same thing, actually. Which receivers can actually do direct DSD output without an internal PCM conversion?
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Ubertrout said:
I've kind of been wondering the same thing, actually. Which receivers can actually do direct DSD output without an internal PCM conversion?
It will take some digging for you to find out, and I am not an AVP guy, preferring separates. I use an Integra DHC 80.1 prepro, and it can be set up in its Direct mode to convert DSD directly to analog. That might work OK for stereo, but has issues for Mch. The DSP, which is the costly heart and soul of the unit, is not used in this mode. That, like all AVP's and AVR's only works in PCM mode. So, with no DSP processing, there is no speaker distance correction, no bass management and no Audyssey EQ. In my system, that sounds dreadful in Mch. Note that these corrections also cannot be done in the player without the same issue, i.e., PCM conversion is required.
I am blissfully happy myself just using HDMI input with PCM conversion in the prepro. Those DSP functions are extremely important to me. I have listened to other "pure" DSD setups and tested my own in that mode, and I have yet to hear the great sonic Nirvana that is supposed to be "pure" DSD. Conversely, I have yet to hear the big sonic downside of conversion to PCM. I just do not agonize over it anymore. It's insignificant, IMHO.
But, if it is important to you, you might check out some of the better AVR's in the Onkyo/Integra and Denon lines. That "pure" DSD feature is likely not available on their lesser units, however.
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The OPPO BDP~83 SE ($899) utilizing the analogue outputs will ensure that DSD is fed directly into your receiver and it also has HDCD and supposedly has better blu-ray specs/ DVD~upsampling than the Cambridge Azur. In my secondary system, I am using a Parasound D3 Universal player analog out into a Parasound P7 analogue pre-amp and the DSD is preserved all the way to the speakers and the Parasound also has a switchable Pure Analogue out (or Pure Digital) capability and it sounds stunning! If you're not hesitant about buying open box or used equipment, you can procure some great deals. IMO, the OPPO is one of the true bargains in audio today and works flawlessly although the CD playback is NOT by any means state of the art (HDCD fares somewhat better, though).
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Post by soundboy April 13, 2010 (8 of 99)
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Polly Nomial said:
I think the Onkyo TX-NR807 would suit for your needs for DSD decoding ($899 SRP) or Onkyo HT-RC180 ($1049 SRP) but I am not sure about HDCD. Similarly for 707, 608, HT-RC160, 508, 308 and maybe others in their range. Denon is curiously silent on the issue.
I'd think if a manufacturer is doing the DSD>>>analog conversion without going through PCM, it would mention it in its specs or selling literatures.
For the record, I contacted Onkyo regarding whether its new 508 and 608 HT receiver will decode DSD without going through a PCM conversion (since I have an Onkyo DV-SP506S DVD universal player that can output DSD via its HDMI output) and the below was Onkyo's response....
"DSD Stands for DIRECT STREAM DIGITAL it is only available through HDMI Multichannel and is the format used to store digital audio on Super Audio CD's (SACD). This mode can be used with SACDs that feature Multichannel audio. DSD sources are converted and handled as PCM. The A/V receiver can input DSD signal from HDMI IN. Setting the output setting on the player side to PCM might obtain a better sound according to the player. If you can select PCM or DSD output on your SACD player, in some cases, selecting PCM will provide the best sound quality.'
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soundboy said:
I'd think if a manufacturer is doing the DSD>>>analog conversion without going through PCM, it would mention it in its specs or selling literatures.
For the record, I contacted Onkyo regarding whether its new 508 and 608 HT receiver will decode DSD without going through a PCM conversion (since I have an Onkyo DV-SP506S DVD universal player that can output DSD via its HDMI output) and the below was Onkyo's response....
As I said, I think it is only the top of the line units that can do this. The Integra DHC 80.1 prepro and the DTR 80.1 receiver both can do it (I believe there are Onkyo equivalents of these.) But, as I also said, in my opininion it's not worth doing. Having Audyssey EQ on in those units, which requires the PCM conversion, makes a much more worthwhile difference than pure DSD. That's what my ears tell me from actual listening.
Also, contrary to Onkyo's advice, I and most others in the AVS forum with BDP-83's prefer the sound with the prepro or AVR (some Denon users, too), not the player, doing the PCM translation. But, the difference is not huge either way. You have to listen for yourself and decide.
Pure DSD conversion is an esoteric feature of AVP's and AVR's, and I do not think it is going to be mentioned porominently in the features or specs of the units. You probably have to delve into the owner's manual or try to ask questions at the appropriate online forum or ask the manufacturer. It is not stated on the webpage for my DHC 80.1, but I can show you where it is burried in the owner's manual. Remember, these are officially Home Theater pieces and the marketing is directed to that audience. But, many of them, like my 80.1, also happen to also sound great with music, as well.
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Post by Epsilon April 13, 2010 (10 of 99)
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rammiepie said:
The OPPO BDP~83 SE ($899) utilizing the analogue outputs will ensure that DSD is fed directly into your receiver [...]
I thought it was mentioned somewhere on this forum that all players feed PCM through their analogue outputs so a conversion from DSD within the player is inevitable when you connect through the analogue output (anyway, how can an analogue output carry Direct-stream DIGITAL?) - as I said, I am not an expert in this.
Anyway, I am amazed by the wonderful sound of my SACD player even though it is PCM coming through the analogue outputs (my AVR has no HDMI input) and my player is an entry level PIONEER DV600AV. I just thought that perhaps now I could upgrade my receiver to be able to try out pure DSD through HDMI and play my Mike Oldfield HDCDs with the extended 20 bit content decoded on my AVR. (BTW can anyone review the sonics of the MO HDCDs?)
Thank you, guys for the suggestions. I found a distributor of the European OPPO players in my country and perhaps I will upgrade my player instead of the AVR after all. The distributor's website offers only the earlier DV981HD and DV983HD players so the newer Blue-Ray Universal players are not there yet but I sent them an email asking if they are available.
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