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rammiepie said:
I wish SACD was more widespread and I think a lot of audio publications are beginning to see the light.
Unfortunately there's still a lot of conflicting information about SACD, take Stereophile for example, one day they can give a $1000 Marantz SACD player their top rating and the next they can totally confuse people interested in the new Playback Designs SACD player with their measurements..
Many people still don't understand hi-res digital.
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Post by rammiepie January 28, 2010 (62 of 83)
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audioholik said:
Unfortunately there's still a lot of conflicting information about SACD, take Stereophile for example, one day they can give a $1000 Marantz SACD player their top rating and the next they can totally confuse people interested in the new Playback Designs SACD player with their measurements..
Many people still don't understand hi-res digital.
And they NEVER, NEVER Will! Accept it. Even some of my friends that introduced me to hi~end audio have NEVER got on the high~rez bandwagon. It will ALWAYS be a niche market.
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rammiepie said:
"let's be painfully realistic: No $1400 Mass marketed player will have the resolving power of the tank-like and extremely well-reviewed Playback Design unit."
I understand the point you are making, but I doubt that a $1,400 CD player can rightly be called a "mass marketed" player. Where is the "mass market" for a CDP that costs the better part of a mortgage payment? Mass market = iPod. A quick check at the king of mass marketed audio (BestBuy.com) shows their highest priced Sony CDP is a $300 5-disc changer. Believe me, I would like to convince my partner that spending $1,400 for a CD player is a mass market purchase and not a crazy lot of money!
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sonicseeker said:
rammiepie said:
"let's be painfully realistic: No $1400 Mass marketed player will have the resolving power of the tank-like and extremely well-reviewed Playback Design unit."
I understand the point you are making, but I doubt that a $1,400 CD player can rightly be called a "mass marketed" player. Where is the "mass market" for a CDP that costs the better part of a mortgage payment? Mass market = iPod. A quick check at the king of mass marketed audio (BestBuy.com) shows their highest priced Sony CDP is a $300 5-disc changer. Believe me, I would like to convince my partner that spending $1,400 for a CD player is a mass market purchase and not a crazy lot of money!
I wasn't trying to sound snobby, but when cartridges list for $20,000, interconnects (the Tara Zero Lab interconnect) list for $18,500, and turntables spiral out of control for $180,000, $1,400.00 seems rather low key. I have an OPPO BDP~83 Universal blu-ray player which is $499 and as it has warmed up, I cannot believe how good it is. But great, no way. It doesn't have the resolving power of my Meridians but one cannot possibly expect it to perform equally at that price point. I do NOT have the Playback Design unit but would lust after it in the multi-channel configuration which will probably increase the list upward to $20,000. And even for that money, you're probably still NOT getting the best that is available today (the DCS Scarlatti @ $80,000 has that distinction).
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Post by AmonRa March 21, 2010 (65 of 83)
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rammiepie said:
I have an OPPO BDP~83 Universal blu-ray player which is $499 and as it has warmed up, I cannot believe how good it is. But great, no way. It doesn't have the resolving power of my Meridians but one cannot possibly expect it to perform equally at that price point. I do NOT have the Playback Design unit but would lust after it in the multi-channel configuration which will probably increase the list upward to $20,000. And even for that money, you're probably still NOT getting the best that is available today (the DCS Scarlatti @ $80,000 has that distinction).
You still fall into the trap of thinking that something costing $80000 MUST be better. It is not so. An example: Scarlatti makes a saparate unit for upconversion from 16/44.1 to 24/96 which costs $10000 or something. The very best SRCs and dithering software for PC/Mac audio editing are either free (SoX) or cost only $40 (iZotope). I honestly belive these software converters are better* than whan Scarlatti offers, and besides all modern converters do at least 4x upconversion in the DAC chip, free, so to speak. Why does Scarlatti charge $10000 for this mundane task?
Now, you just throw these opinions based on price. As a matter of fact it would be easly and cheap to compare players to find out which is most accurate = best.
Procedure:
1) make a DSD test recording, maybe complex orchestreal music, also test tones if wanted.
2) print a SACD out of it.
3) play it with various SACD players and record the output using the very same converter as in step 1.
4) Sum the signals with phase reversed on one. The player with the smallest signal is the winner.
For some strange reason audiophile magazines are not willing to conduct this simple test, which would cost comparativelly next to nothing. I think we all know why.
*) for example most hardware converters (Weiss, Prism etc) are not as good as these free converters.
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AmonRa, why can't you accept the simple fact that there ARE audio "toys" which exist that are indeed beyond the realm of most budgets which perform beyond the ordinary and transform the listener to extraordinary sonic experiences. Don't rely on charts and graphs to counter an explanation because it cannot begin to explain the levels that such esoteric equipment is capable of. This is not jibberish and the high end isn't like a crooked wall street broker trying to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. Let's not get into this tiresome discussion again about transports, interconnects, etc.......Take the time to listen to what's available before you tender another tirade.
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Post by AmonRa March 21, 2010 (67 of 83)
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If the aim of a $$$$$ piece of equipment is to present the sound as clear, transparent and untarnished as possible, it would show in my proposed test as the best, with minimum amount of waveform distortion. It is that simple; the least coloration of reproduced sound. Are you afraid that they would not prove to be better than a sub 1k$ OPPO?
My proposed method is not graphs and measurements, it is a staight and easy comparason on data going in and what comes out. Least change = best.
If somebody prefers a $80000 player because it alters the sound, why not be honest about it, and try to find ways of doing the same with a $50 DSP module?
I seriously think you are confusing real sound quality and high price status/envy/prestige psychology in a bad way. You have not single reliable proof that a $80000 Scarlatti player is better than a $800 OPPO. Nobody has, it is all in the price sticker.
You have not presented any intelligent counterarguments to the points I presented myself, like the price difference of upsamplers or the test method I suggested.
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If the $800 Oppo BDP-83 SE sounded as good as the Scarlatti or even the Playback Design SACD/CD players, that would, indeed, be a beautiful thing. And if you want to think that way, so be it. The only way you would be convinced is doing an A/B comparison, which you probably won't do. So, based on sheer speculation and wishful thinking your mind has already been made up. Based on what I have heard, the OPPO BDP-83 in DVD-Audio mode does not begin to compare with my Meridian 800 in DVD-A mode and my Marantz SA112S sounds fuller and more refined than the OPPO in stereo mode. Those are just two examples. In a recent review, the Playback Design was compared to the Marantz SA7 and the EMM Meitner and in all parameters bettered both units by a significant margin. Why, because it employs the Teac-Esoteric VSOP transport which is the best in the business and which costs by itself about 5 times more than the entire OPPO unit. But let's be perfectly, frank, none of the above play Blu-Ray and that is where the OPPO shines. If you expect an $800 universal player which even includes an HDCD decoder to better standalone SACD/CD players costing thousands more, then you are surely delusional but then again, ignorance IS bliss!
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Post by AmonRa March 21, 2010 (69 of 83)
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rammiepie said:
Why, because it employs the Teac-Esoteric VSOP transport which is the best in the business and which costs by itself about 5 times more than the entire OPPO unit.
And can equalled, bit to bit, by every DVD-ROM drive costing $30. Ignorance is a waste of money.
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AmonRa said:
And can equalled, bit to bit, by every DVD-ROM drive costing $30. Ignorance is a waste of money.
I very sincerely doubt that but why go on with this asinine discussion, anyway?
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