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krisjan said:
I completely disagree with that statement.
As well you should. The measurement issue with the Playback Design had nothing to do with frequency response. It was a noise issue. Of course on one level noise is an issue with the SACD format generally. In fact, Dr. Stanley Lipschitz, in whom I distrust, has submitted a paper to the AES claiming that SACD, by its very nature is not a "high fidelity medium" because of the broadband noise issue. He's all about PCM.
However, the Playback Designs' measurement issue was one of noise. Not noise that can be heard, but noise that can be measured.
According to JA's measurements, the noise floor essentially reduces resolution to 16 bits..of course it doesn't sound that way playing back 96/24 files (upconverted to claimed 3X DSD).
The designer, Andreas Koch has been involved with DSD since its inception. He knew precisely what he was doing in the design of this SACD player. He could have designed it to have "picture perfect" measurements, I am sure.
But, as savvy speaker designers say, getting flat frequency response on axis these days is relatively easy, but that really doesn't tell the whole story, or even the most compelling part of the story.
Koch was designing for perfect impulse response, which he suggests is more important in terms of what you hear..
In any case, based on a recent conversation with Koch, Atkinson is getting the unit back to run additional measurements.....
I urge everyone here to TRUST THEIR EARS while paying heed to measurements. DO NOT BE LEAD AROUND BY MEASUREMENTS and use them to decide what you like...
That's why I prefer vinyl. Doesn't measure as well but sounds much better....
-Michael Fremer (Sooloos owner---I don't hate digital. I just prefer analog
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Post by krisjan January 27, 2010 (52 of 83)
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Welcome to the center of the SACD universe, Michael.
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"If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad; if it measures bad and sounds good, you have measured the wrong thing."
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analogcorner said:
Koch was designing for perfect impulse response, which he suggests is more important in terms of what you hear..
Mr. Koch is not the only one suggesting that
"Many misconceptions and mysteries surround the perception and reproduction of musical sounds. Specifications such as frequency response and certain common distortions provide an inadequate indication of the sound quality, whereas accuracy in the time domain is known to significantly influence audio transparency"
http://www.physics.sc.edu/kunchur/Acoustics-papers.htm
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Post by rammiepie January 27, 2010 (55 of 83)
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Unfortunately, Dr. Stanlery Lipschitz's disparaging comments re: SACD steered me towards DVD-A because I was spoiled by the allure of the Meridian 800 and did not care for the Stereo SACD units of the early millennium. Mr. Fremer, is there any chance that the Playback Design will merit another review in the multi-channel configuration and do you know the pricing for the multi-channel Playback Design unit or will you relegate that review to Kal Rubinson who like, myself, LOVES multi-channel. But thank you for your insightful review. Comparing it to the dCS Scarlatti which is five times+ the cost took a lot of cojones. Your bias for analog is understandable since it has a 75+ year head start on Digital technology but maybe someday they'll get it right....but your honesty in reporting your findings was very much appreciated and that is why I have been a subscriber to Stereophile for many decades.
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Post by RWetmore January 27, 2010 (56 of 83)
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Welcome Michael.
Nice to have you here.
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Post by RWetmore January 27, 2010 (57 of 83)
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BTW, Michael - have you heard the new Sony SCD-XA5400ES?
If yes, how does it compare in your opinion?
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rammiepie said:
Your bias for analog is understandable since it has a 75+ year head start on Digital technology but maybe someday they'll get it right....
we already got it right, we have Sonoma and Pyramix workstations, Grimm Audio A/D converters, SACD players in any price range, the DSD technology is readily available for use.
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rammiepie said:
Unfortunately, Dr. Stanlery Lipschitz's disparaging comments re: SACD steered me towards DVD-A because I was spoiled by the allure of the Meridian 800 and did not care for the Stereo SACD units of the early millennium. Mr. Fremer, is there any chance that the Playback Design will merit another review in the multi-channel configuration and do you know the pricing for the multi-channel Playback Design unit or will you relegate that review to Kal Rubinson who like, myself, LOVES multi-channel. But thank you for your insightful review. Comparing it to the dCS Scarlatti which is five times+ the cost took a lot of cojones. Your bias for analog is understandable since it has a 75+ year head start on Digital technology but maybe someday they'll get it right....but your honesty in reporting your findings was very much appreciated and that is why I have been a subscriber to Stereophile for many decades.
I have not audtioned the absurdly priced dSc scarlatibut the P8i that Stereophile recommended at £8K in the UK was very poor by my standards/ The dCs rep visited my home and he admitted it weas not worthwhile for me to change my player.
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Post by rammiepie January 28, 2010 (60 of 83)
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audioholik said:
we already got it right, we have Sonoma and Pyramix workstations, Grimm Audio A/D converters, SACD players in any price range, the DSD technology is readily available for use.
But unfortunately a thousand dollar turntable still sounds better than the majority of RBCD players in the average home and with the major advances in technology that really should not be the case at this juncture in digital technology. I have NO doubt that a great SACD player could give most turntables a run for their money and custom vinyl prices are through the roof but I wish SACD was more widespread and I think a lot of audio publications are beginning to see the light. Michael Fremer's excellent review of the Playback Design unit has amply demonstrated the superiority of the format (while bundling a great RBCD player in the process). But I sincerely doubt that we'll ever see a player with that capability in the $1000 range.
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