add to wish list | library


11 of 13 recommend this,
would you recommend it?

yes | no

Support this site by purchasing from these vendors using the paid links below. As an Amazon Associate SA-CD.net earns from qualifying purchases.
 
amazon.ca
amazon.co.uk
amazon.com
amazon.de
 
amazon.fr
amazon.it
 
jpc

Discussion: Brahms: Piano Concerto No. 3 (arr. Lazic) - Lazic, Spano

Posts: 92
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 next

Post by tream December 16, 2009 (1 of 92)
Does it strike anyone else as odd that this arrangement of the Brahms' Violin Concerto is being designated "Piano Concerto #3" by Channel? This doesn't strike me as legit - it is an arrangment for piano of the Violin Concerto. We don't designate Beethoven's own arrangement for piano of his Violin Concerto to be Piano Concerto #6, which would seem to be a more reasonable thing to do than to designate this arrangement by someone else's hand as being canonical.

I am sure it will be an interesting disc....still, a misleading title.

Post by Windsurfer December 16, 2009 (2 of 92)
tream said:

Does it strike anyone else as odd that this arrangement of the Brahms' Violin Concerto is being designated "Piano Concerto #3" by Channel?

Yeah, but it doesnt seem like a big deal to me. IF I were to complain about anything, it would be to say that I would have much rather had the First and Second Piano Concertos from Channel, BEFORE this one.

Post by Claude December 16, 2009 (3 of 92)
It's not only odd, but wrong. The Violin concerto was composed between the two Piano concertos, so this should be named Piano concerto No 1.5 ;-)


Concerning Beethoven's Piano concerto No 6, some labels don't hesitate to call it as such:

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Concerto-Choral-Fantasy/dp/B0000030V7

This naming scheme surely creates more public attention that simply calling it "Piano Transcription of ..."

Post by Gigi December 16, 2009 (4 of 92)
Is it a Five-four production recording (Spano ASO-TELARC)or Channel ?
Do you known recording details ?
Thank you very much

Post by current93 December 16, 2009 (5 of 92)
Same odd thing happened with Rachmaninov Second Symphony, it became Piano Concerto #5. Personally, i'm against such arrangements, artists should put their interpretative vision into real (numbered) concertos. There is enough field for that. Sibelius didn't write some piano concertos, maybe someone make an arrengement of his Violin Concerto or just add a piano part to 7th Symphony? Bad idea...

Post by hiredfox December 17, 2009 (6 of 92)
Some of these arrangement get official approval, some do not. Elgar's 3rd Symphony is nothing of the sort. Should his sketches have remained unpublished? In that case the trustees succumbed to head off the danger of every Tom, Dick & Harry doing to Elgar's sketches what Lazic appears to be doing here. There's plenty of repertory still to be recorded without music hall pieces clouding the issue.

Post by channel December 17, 2009 (7 of 92)
It is great to see discussions starting up about this new arrangement from Dejan. There will be many more commments after the cd is released in January. I hope though that before one draws any conclusions please read Dejan's thoughts on this below and hopefully get a chance to hear this performance.

Jared


Johannes Brahms: Piano Concerto No. 3 in D Major, Op. 77a -
arranged after the Violin Concerto by Dejan Lazic

World Premiere:
October 1, 2009 (additional concerts October 2 & 3, 2009)
at the Woodruff Arts Center, Atlanta, USA
Dejan Lazic, piano
Atlanta Symphony Orchestra / Robert Spano, conductor

My source of inspiration was a joint one: the piano versions of the Violin Concertos of Bach and Beethoven, which were made by the composers themselves.

I started working on this project in early 2003 and completed it in 2008. The violin was always a favourite love, and I continue to hold violinists in high esteem, realising just how wonderful their literature is. Thus far, I have been tremendously lucky to have had many an opportunity to perform with some wonderful colleagues. And it is with a degree of pride that I present – after Bach and Beethoven – the third “great B” in the present arrangement.

Subjectivity plays a role of course, and I have always found this particular concerto, along with Beethoven’s 4th Piano Concerto, to be amongst the best instrumental concertos ever written. Naturally, I felt the challenge to arrange or transcribe the Brahms early on. I was intrigued by the idea of rendering it in an idiomatic version for piano and orchestra. The ultimate aim was clear: I wanted to perform it myself!

Perhaps composer and piano virtuoso Muzio Clementi felt the same way after listening to Beethoven’s Violin Concerto. Shortly after the performance, he asked Beethoven to arrange it for piano and orchestra, for he had fallen in love with this beautiful piece and wanted to play it himself, to present it to London audiences, and to make it as popular in England as it was on the Continent at the time. It is also interesting to note how Beethoven treats the first movement's original cadenza and how that passage holds major significance for him in the new arrangement: there, he composed an entirely new cadenza and scored it for piano and timpani no less.

Similarly, in my piano version of the Brahms Violin Concerto, I composed a new cadenza, for the simple reason that there is no extant Brahms cadenza. Added to which, the attempts by Joachim, Kreisler or Heifetz remain stubbornly suited to the violin, and are not really pianistic in their conception of the music; any arrangement of these would detract too much from their very essence. Besides, should not every cadenza be sort of a “free area”, one in which every soloist ought to be able to improvise on material previously heard?

The desire to arrange a violin concerto as a piano concerto just because one envisages donning the garb of the soloist, is not a good enough motive to take on this challenge. But I also do not feel there is any other romantic violin concerto that would survive the transformation.
At a musicological level, the correspondence between Brahms and his dedicatee Joseph Joachim played a major role for me. After numerous changes, much good advice, and actual corrections by Joachim it remains quite clear that Brahms had always composed as a pianist (at the piano) and therefore felt this music as a pianist, if also as a symphonic composer (originally, Brahms wrote the Violin Concerto in four movements, which was typical for a symphony). It is quite obvious that the Violin Concerto had its roots in both friendship and practicality: his aim was to write a concerto for Joachim, from which we can infer the term concerto took on a greater significance than the violin itself. But we are skating on thin ice here, what I mean to say is that it is quite justified to speculate about what would have happened if Joachim had been a cellist or a clarinettist, or even…a pianist!

What emerges from the text most readily is a liberal dose of difficulty that is simply not in the nature of the violin: Brahms remained first and foremost a pianist and thus on the outside of the world of a violin virtuoso. Maybe this explains why Hans von Bülow once described the concerto as being “against the violin”. Sarasate, for his part, simply refused to play it, and Vieniawski commented that it was “simply unplayable”. That is as may be, and we now know this not to be the case.
But another – possibly more important – question pops its head above the parapet: is one actually “allowed” to make such an arrangement?

With the benefit of hindsight, we know that Brahms made countless arrangements and transcriptions of his and other composers’ works. I am convinced these were more than justified; hence, I hope that Brahms himself would not have anything against my idea. Let us dwell for a moment on Brahms and his contemporaries (not least Franz Liszt), who made a plethora of transcriptions, arrangements, variations, and produced much else besides. Nowadays, we seem to fail to cherish this great tradition. Maybe I am behaving here more as a composer than a performer – the line that divides production and reproduction is obviously an extremely thin one.

Again, turn your thoughts to Brahms’ beautiful Violin Sonata in G major, and then, if you will, to his own transcription of the piece for cello: what emerges is the wonderful Cello Sonata in D major, the composer wisely recasting the work in another key. A new tonality, another instrument. Altered and modified, the piece experiences a kind of transmogrification. The musical metamorphosis is complete. The same goes for both masterly written Clarinet Sonatas which Brahms transcribed for Viola, or his version of Bach's famous Chaconne for violin solo in D minor - for piano/left hand. At the end of the day, this is about music and not about the institutionalization of music...

What lingers is the rhetorical question of what is a transcription, what makes an arrangement, what may be defined as a new version. The key to this conundrum is that I sought to construct anew the violin part, recomposing the voice in a thorough-going Brahmsian style and adding my own cadenza. Of great import is that the orchestral score remains entirely unchanged!

With this arrangement, my main goal was to translate Brahms' unique musical language into a new setting without losing any of its original musical value and, in addition, to give pianists an equal chance to perform and enjoy this wonderful music the same way violinists do for exactly 130 years now...

Dejan Lazic, Spring 2009.

Post by Daland December 17, 2009 (8 of 92)
I have not found here any valid argument in favour of this strange concoction called Brahms' Piano Concerto No. 3. The real motive is probably to attract public attention with something not done before. There are dozens of excellent
piano concertos (some of them not available in modern multi-channel recordings), but only a handful of fine violin concertos. So it would have made more sense for a violinist to arrange a piano concerto for his instrument.

What comes next?

Post by tream December 17, 2009 (9 of 92)
Thanks, Jared. I emphatically do not have any issue with Dejan Lazic making a transcription of the Brahms violin concerto for piano. Transcriptions of other composers' work have a long and honored history. Mozart-Handel, Schoenberg-Brahms, Stokowski-Bach, Ravel-Mussorgsky, and far too many to name.

Where I skew off is to call this Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3 instead of something else. Brahms didn't write a third piano concerto, and there is no telling what he might have done with a transcription of his own music. I think a hypen would have been in order - Brahms-Lazic piano concerto after Opus 77. Otherwise we are down a slippery slope - should some conductor rework the first concerto back into a symphony and call it Brahms Symphony 5?

I view this in a different light than Elgar's 3rd, or Mahler's 10th. Different topic, deserving a separate thread.

Post by Windsurfer December 17, 2009 (10 of 92)
Daland said:
The real motive is probably to attract public attention with something not done before.

What comes next?

I agree with most everything else you said - but this statement seems a little churlish to me. I suspect the real motive was as Lazic stated. I (as stated in my post above) would especially have preferred the First Piano Concerto to this arrangement of the violin concerto for the first Brahms PC from Channel.

That however, does not indicate my disapproval of Dejan's effort or my unwillingness to purchase it to see for myself what it's all about. Maybe when I hear it I will express negative opinions, or maybe positive ones. Depends entirely on the realization.

What you said, Daland, that really resonates with me though is that there are a lot of really FINE piano concertos that would make wonderful SACD projects.

Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 next

Closed