Thread: Unknown classical SACDs on Ebay.de - Fakes or brand new and rare?

Posts: 10
Post by Claude January 10, 2005 (1 of 10)
On Ebay Germany there is a professional seller offering a couple of classical SACDs which are not listed on this site. They apparently consist of old recordings by Horowitz, Rubinstein, Bernstein, and a few newer recordings by less known orchestras/conductors.

The covers look very generic (like budget CD reissues), show an SACD sticker and the label name "Edition 100". The sticker says "multichannel", although Rubinstein and Horowitz were never recorded in quadro AFAIK.

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=81335&item=4064357633&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=81335&item=4064357884&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=81335&item=4064358269&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=81337&item=4065088304&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=40725&item=4065086447&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=81337&item=4065100446&rd=1

The only recording I could identify was the 9th Beethoven symphony by David Zinman and the Tonhalle Zürich. His Beethoven cycle was released on CD some years ago, on the budget label Arte Nova.

Rubinstein's and Horowitz' official recordings were made for RCA and Sony, so I wonder what recordings are on these discs.
Post by zem06 January 10, 2005 (2 of 10)
Claude said:

On Ebay Germany there is a professional seller offering a couple of classical SACDs which are not listed on this site. They apparently consist of old recordings by Horowitz, Rubinstein, Bernstein, and a few newer recordings by less known orchestras/conductors.

The covers look very generic (like budget CD reissues), show an SACD sticker and the label name "Edition 100". The sticker says "multichannel", although Rubinstein and Horowitz were never recorded in quadro AFAIK.

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=81335&item=4064357633&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=81335&item=4064357884&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=81335&item=4064358269&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=81337&item=4065088304&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=40725&item=4065086447&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=81337&item=4065100446&rd=1

The only recording I could identify was the 9th Beethoven symphony by David Zinman and the Tonhalle Zürich. His Beethoven cycle was released on CD some years ago, on the budget label Arte Nova.

Rubinstein's and Horowitz' official recordings were made for RCA and Sony, so I wonder what recordings are on these discs.
Hi Claude

I would avoid these if I were you. I bought a copy of Ma Vlast, only to discover that this "multichannel" SACD merely duplicated the stereo program for the rear speakers. These SACDs are offered through the Bertelsmann Music and Book Club here in Germany. The fact that you would normally have to join the Club in order to buy these discs (price: 9.99 EURO) would indicate a marketing ploy to rope in new members to Bertelsmann's ailing club. The ebay seller's product description ("Gold") is as misleading as the "multichannel" label found on the SACD
Post by electrostatic January 10, 2005 (3 of 10)
zem05 said:

....These SACDs are offered through the Bertelsmann Music and Book Club here in Germany. The fact that you would normally have to join the Club in order to buy these discs (price: 9.99 EURO) would indicate a marketing ploy to rope in new members to Bertelsmann's ailing club. The ebay seller's product description ("Gold") is as misleading as the "multichannel" label found on the SACD
So are these official BMG SACDs? THe Horowitz one seems to be a reissue of an RCA CD - looks fairly legit to me....


I am only interested in the stereo SACD content - how does this sound on these Edition 100 SACDs?

All hybrid SACDs are gold in colour - I suppose it is a little misleading to use this as a selling point!
Post by zem06 January 10, 2005 (4 of 10)
electrostatic said:

So are these official BMG SACDs? THe Horowitz one seems to be a reissue of an RCA CD - looks fairly legit to me....


I am only interested in the stereo SACD content - how does this sound on these Edition 100 SACDs?

All hybrid SACDs are gold in colour - I suppose it is a little misleading to use this as a selling point!
These SACDs are offered through BMG's Music Club, so I'm sure that they're official releases. Ma Vlast sounds fine in stereo, but as there is no technical information (or any other information, apart from a short artist biography in German) listed, it's impossible to tell what sources were used, or how they were processed.
Post by Claude January 10, 2005 (5 of 10)
Thanks zem05 for the info. I wasn't planning to get those SACDs, but just wanted to know what's on them.

It looks like this is RCA/BMG material, which is likely for the Horowitz, Rubinstein and Zinman discs. But Bernstein never recorded for RCA. Could the Shostakovich 5/9 (with the NY Philharmonic) be his Columbia recordings from the 60's?

As far as the multichannel sound is concerned, who could have this stupid idea to duplicate the front channl sound on the rear channels? This does raise question as to the whole technical competence of the production team. Maybe these are just low rez PCM-to-DSD transfers (like the Belafonte SACD released by BMG Hong Kong).
Post by Daland January 11, 2005 (6 of 10)
Being a member of the Bertelsmann Club, I have bought many of the 30-odd SACDs released so far. They consist of BMG and Sony material. The sound quality ranges from impressive to satisfactory. While these are not true surround recordings, they offer better spatial definition and greater transparency than the redbook versions. The string sound is very smooth throughout, which would hardly be the case if the CD stereo sound were just duplicated for the rear speakers. The remastering was obviously in the hands of Sony (Sonopress). The SACDS are produced by Sony Music Entertainment (Germany) GmbH. This is not the first time that Sony has released multi-channel recordings that were originally in stereo(Alexander Nevsky, Copland).

I think it was a good idea for Bertelsmann to publicize the SACD format by issuing a special edition of 100 recordings. Unfortunately, information about recording dates and technical details is very sparse or even non-existent.

The series includes a number of real gems: Brahms's Symphonies No. 2 and 3 with Günter Wand and the NDR Symphony Orchestra, tone-poems by Richard Strauss with Eugen Jochum and the Bamberg Symphony, Shostakovich's Fifth with Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic, Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies with Zubin Mehta and the Israel Philharmonic, Chopin's Piano Concertos with Emmanuel Ax and the Philadelphia Orchestra under Eugene Ormandy, two Piano Concertos by Mozart with Artur Rubinstein and the RCA Victor Orchestra under Alfred Wallenstein (orchestra and conductor are not stated), Smetana's Ma Vlast with Vaclav Neumann and the Gewandhaus Orchestra, overtures by Verdi and Rossini with Claudio Abbado and the London Symphony Orchestra, and piano works by Schumann and Chopin with Vladimir Horowitz.

So while this project has been handled rather clumsily, it should not be dismissed as an attempt to foist fake SACDs on an uninformed public. Some of the recordings are definitely worth buying, all the more so as the price is less than 10 EUR.
Post by zeus January 11, 2005 (7 of 10)
Daland said:

I think it was a good idea for Bertelsmann to publicize the SACD format by issuing a special edition of 100 recordings.
Yikes, there's a 100 of them? Do you have a link with a full listing?
Post by zem06 January 12, 2005 (8 of 10)
zeus said:

Yikes, there's a 100 of them? Do you have a link with a full listing?
Not all 100 titles have been released yet. For the 20 or so available titles, try www.derclub.de (Bertelsmann Club) and look under 'Musik' and 'Klassik'.
Post by Daland January 12, 2005 (9 of 10)
zeus said:

Yikes, there's a 100 of them? Do you have a link with a full listing?
Here is a list of the titles that have been released so far (I have translated them into English):

Bach, Violin Concertos, Amsterdam Bach Soloists, Zehetmaier
Beethoven, Piano Sonatas Nos. 8, 14, 23, 26, Rubinstein
Beethoven, Symphony No. 9, Tonhalle Orch., Zinman
Berlioz, Requiem, Boston Symphony Orch., Ozawa
Brahms, A German Requiem, New Philharmonia, Maazel
Brahms, Symphonies Nos. 2 and 3, NDR Symphony Orch., Wand
Chopin, Ballades, Polonaise, Nocturne, Horowitz
Chopin, Piano Concertos, Philadelphia Orch., Ax, Ormandy
Grieg, Peer Gynt, Holberg Suite, Bamberg Symphony Orch., Eschenbach
Handel, Water Music, Fireworks Music, Festival Strings Lucerne, Baumgartner
Liszt, Hungarian Rhapsodies, Mehta, Israel Philharmonic
Liszt, Sonata in B minor, Consolation, etc., Horowitz
Mahler, Symphony No. 5, Philadelphia Orch., Levine
Mozart, Flute Concertos, Festival Strings Lucerne, Galway, Baumgartner
Mozart, Overtures, Staatskapelle Dresden, C. Davis
Mozart, Piano Concertos Nos. 17 and 21, RCA Victor Orch., Rubinstein, Wallenstein
Rimsky Korsakov, Scheherazade, Russian Easter, New York Philh., Temirkanov
Rossini/Verdi, Overtures, London Symphony Orch., Abbado
Schubert, Rosamunde, German Dances, Bamberg Symphony Orch., Stein
Schumann, Cello Concerto, Tchaikovsky, Rococo Variations, London Symphony Orch., Geringas, Foster
Schumann, Piano Sonata No. 3, Humoreske, Fantasiestücke, Horowitz
Shostakovich, Symphonies Nos. 5 und 9, New York Philharmonic, Bernstein
Sibelius, Schnittke, Violin Concerto/Concerto grosso, Kremer, LSO
Smetana, Ma Vlast, Gewandhaus Orch., Neumann
Strauss, Don Juan, Till Eulenspiegel, Rosenkavalier Waltzes, Bamberg Symphony Orch., Jochum
Orchestral Favourites (Bizet: Carmen Suite, Massenet: Méditation, Gounod: Faust Waltz, Tchaikovsky: Polonaise from Eugene Onegin, etc.), Stuttgart RSO, Marriner
Post by raffells January 12, 2005 (10 of 10)
suggest you try http://www.gramophone.co.uk/cdreviews.asp

Most of these have original reviews when issue on cd...a bit of a mixture...Dave

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