Post by AELK March 1, 2009 (271 of 321)
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Windsurfer said:
Alan,
Do you listen to Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler, Shostakovitch or to Elvis?
Dear WindSurfer,
Personaly I hate the fake tenor voice of Elvis and all his silly songs. I appreciate your patience in explain your system. The big prob with MC sound is not the users system, but the making of the MC sound mix.
By what you said, your and your friend MC systems have a good sound. I like equipment and discs that are more simple, elegant and classic projects ( they never go out of fashion), as a Stereo 'only 2 channels' SACD made with only 2 mics direct to 2 track or to DSD, a FullRange No CrossOver cone speaker, a tube Pre/Power amp SET or Pentode, because these equips are more loyal to the music, that a handful of channels stacked without any relation with each other, which becomes a rough technique of capturing the music or mixing the music in a Console full of knobs.
The 'trueness' timbre of a FullRange cone speaker drive by a tube are a thing no MC sound can came near.
I think all MC sound lovers will be full satified when they listen a Stereo LineArray of Full Range Drivers which should have a height over 6 feets, where you can hear the acoustic size of the concert Hall.
Resuming I hate MC sound of any type (5.1 or 6.1 or 7.1 or 10.1) and I have a firm position over 35 years of listening and you too have a firm position. Obviously you will not convert me and I will not convert you.
So best to conclude this conversation Stereo x MC sound, cause I do not want lost the friendship of you, and others guys of this site and too BISSIE/Mr.Robert.
Best Wishes, Alan
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AELK said:
The big prob with MC sound is not the users system, but the making of the MC sound mix.
I like equipment and discs that are more simple, elegant and classic projects ( they never go out of fashion), as a Stereo 'only 2 channels' SACD made with only 2 mics direct to 2 track or to DSD,
a FullRange No CrossOver cone speaker, a tube Pre/Power amp SET or Pentode, because these equips are more loyal to the music,
that a handful of channels stacked without any relation with each other, which becomes a rough technique of capturing the music or mixing the music in a Console full of knobs.
The 'trueness' timbre of a FullRange cone speaker drive by a tube are a thing no MC sound can came near.
I think all MC sound lovers will be full satified when they listen a Stereo LineArray of Full Range Drivers which should have a height over 6 feets, where you can hear the acoustic size of the concert Hall.
Best Wishes, Alan
Alan,
Best wishes
Bruce
But really it is quite evident you do not know what you are talking about - where do you find a classical music recording using only 2 microphones for the two channels? SACD or RBCD or LP? Those things disappeared in the 1960s As an avid concert-goer, I find the new recordings with a basic 3 channels up front and 2 for surrounds far surpass anything available before.
What puzzles me is that you confuse your desire for a FullRange No CrossOver cone speaker, a tube Pre/Power amp SET or Pentode, as synonymous with simple long obsolete recording technique.
You can have 5 instead of 2 channels of everything you describe above and if you attend some concerts in places like Carnegie Hall, Boston's Symphony Hall. the Concertgebouw, the fine hall in Bornemouth UK or Birmingham, you will see that five channels which are really really well related to each other - your statement :"a handful of channels stacked without any relation with each other" is laughable - it has no bearing in the real world of recording.
Those five channels will give a MUCH better representation of what anyone with two ears experiences in a concert hall. If you only have one ear, then that is a different matter.
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Windsurfer said:
If you only have one ear, then that is a different matter.
Even with one ear. Don't forget the HRTF!!
Kal
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Kal Rubinson said:
Even with one ear. Don't forget the HRTF!!
Kal
OK, Kal,
You got me!
What in the world is the HRTF ?
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Windsurfer said:
OK, Kal,
You got me!
What in the world is the HRTF ?
HeadRelated Transfer Function
Google it.
Kal
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Post by AELK March 2, 2009 (276 of 321)
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This is Windsurfer reply:
Quite evident you have hard ears.
I do not believe you go to Orchestras concerts and think DSP equalized Multi Channel sound is more near to live Orchestra music.
The only place you go regularly is the nearest Macdonald, the grease of meat rose to your brain and you wrote great foolishness.
Clearly you believe in the propaganda of Home Theater equipment makers that MC sound is high fidelity, this is the dream of all manufacturer of MultiCh Receivers.
You do not have the slightest idea of what is Hi-Fi and Hi-End. So I will told to you a hint:
The best amps in the world have always been tube amps, as Audio Note Japan (Ongaku SET), Audio Research (REF600/610 UltraLinear), Joule-Electra (VZN220 OTL Circlotron), Tenor Audio OTL, Wavac Audio (HE-833 SET), ATMA-SPHERE (MA-3 OTL Circlotron). If you use a Nelson Pass XA.5 or other fine transistor Class A amp its also a good second place. The best amps will ever be tube amps.
The only solid state came near a tube amp is the FM Acoustics Resolution Series at 17K euros for the entrance power amp model FM-111 ( 115W, 8 ohms ).
The 5.1 DSP equalized Receiver of MC users is a Mid Fi gear for low price mass consumers purposes.
Large recordings labels use a full mic tree cause they dont know how use 2 mics only and capture all the orchestra + hall reverb sound and do not have time to learn how to use Blumlein technique, plus they like to edit, mix up-down tracks and until use compressors.
Today 2009 you will find minimalist two mics recordings in audiophile labels as Chesky, Audioquest, and at the late Sheffield Labs which closing doors in 90's years, various labels were using minimalist recording as John Marks Recordings, Black Daliah and others I will not search for you.
Today Chesky use not two mics, but ONE STEREO MICROPHONE Soundfield Mark 5, if you read the SACD booklet of any recent release.
Puzzled yet, read this: In the begining of BIS label, they used recording with two mics only.
Before DSD, the best recordings on classical music since CBS created Stereo LP are firts place Sheffield Labs analog 30ips (better than RCA Living Stereo or Mercury Living Presence).
You should read some free Hi-End sites that dont accept advertisement and stop reading Home Theater stuff. Business grade ( $$$ ) magazines as TAS or Stereophile etc also have his neck hold by the money of the advertisers.
This thread is for Mr.Robert surveil the SACD public for BIS label. Lets stop this discussion.
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Post by tailspn March 2, 2009 (277 of 321)
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AELK said:
Quite evident you have hard ears.
Quite evident you are an audiophile. Pity. The survival of the high end reproduced music business needs people with an open mind to new technologies, not dismissive based on conservative retro beliefs.
Give it a break Alan.
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AELK said:
Quite evident you have hard ears.
I do not believe you go to Orchestras concerts and think DSP equalized Multi Channel sound is more near to live Orchestra music.
The only place you go regularly is the nearest Macdonald, the grease of meat rose to your brain and you wrote great foolishness.
Clearly you believe in the propaganda of Home Theater equipment makers that MC sound is high fidelity, this is the dream of all manufacturer of MultiCh Receivers.
I assume you are talking to me? or was it to Kal?
You are drawing a lot of inferences based on an insufficiency of data.
1 I do not use DSP equalised anything.
2 This discussion has nothing to do with what kind of amps (or speakers) you use.
3 I had a heart attack in 1994 and have not eaten at McDonalds in more than 14 yrs but even before that, I was aware, beginning in the late 1980s of the pitfalls of eating beef, to say nothing of hamburgers. You are making assertions about someone you know nothing about.
4 I have a series subscription of seven concerts to the Boston Symphony. It is a 177 mile trip one way to attend these concerts which I love dearly, and to which I pay a lot of attention regarding sound quality because I can't get there just any day of the week, any week that I choose. Carnegie Hall, I only get there 2 or 3 times a season. For very special artists like Julia Fischer, I will travel (so far) as Cincinatti (700 miles) to hear something that she did not record for PentaTone. I will be traveling over 170 miles to Carnegie Hall to hear her play the Prokofiev #1 on March 15th. And I do have that PentaTone recording, which I value highly. I am on the board of directors of the Troy Chromatics Concerts (If you choose to disbelieve that go to their website and click on the link listing the Board of Directors http://www.troychromatics.org/about/ )and of course I have series tickets for all of them. Additionally I attend the Union College Chamber Concerts, and the Friends of Chamber Music of Troy NY concerts. Just two Sundays ago heard a great performance by the Tokyo String Quartet in Kiggins Hall there.
I do not have any "home theater" equipment. My preamp is a Bel Canto analog Pre-6. My speakers on the left and right were the same ones I used for stereo - dipolar Apogee Duetta Signatures. The amp is the same Musical Fidelity P-270 that has always driven the Apogees. The center channel is a pair of dipolar Magneplanar 2.6Rs very nice ribbon tweeters.
What makes you so rudely aggressive?
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bissie said:
Hello,
this is Robert from BIS, aka bissie.
In the current business climate even we have to look at bean-counting.
Since we release all our SACD:s as Hybrids and since we don't charge a premium, but absorb the extra costs for recording, editing, mastering and production of an SACD, selling at the same price as a RBCD,
*I would be extremely interested in knowing how many EXTRA copies we sell because of the SACD option.*
Mathematically, starting from the edited master tape, we need to sell some 600 EXTRA copies of the production in order to break even for the extra costs of producing the SACD, compared to releasing only a RBCD.
Question: do we do it? Since we don't have double inventory, there is no way for me to tell.
Obviously there are other factors as well: prestige, good-will, satisfaction with a superb product, but, when it comes to paying the salaries (BIS is nowadays probably the only classical company in the world with its own, full-time production staff - we have 7 producers/engineers hired that roam the 6 continents of the world recording with our own equipment) we need the green stuff.
So, since this would be the relevant Forum to ask something like that: how many of you, who do buy the occasional BIS SACD would abstain from doing so, were the identical programme to appear only as RBCD?
I think this is a relevant question to put, especially so, since many of my colleagues seemingly have made the same calculation - and then abandoned SACD.
Best - Robert
I'm rather late with answering Bissie's question.
I still buy RBCD's but mainly rare out-of-print ones and rarely at that.
My ratio is 1 RBCD for every 25 SACD's, especially when SACD's introduce new great artists in interesting repertoire such as BIS'. I only resort to buying CD when the particular music I was looking for is absolutely not available on SACD or not intended for future release in SACD. On-going, I would hold off buying a CD for as logn as I can, hoping that the recording label may decide on an SACD release of the same material.
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AELK said:
Quite evident you have hard ears.
I do not believe you go to Orchestras concerts and think DSP equalized Multi Channel sound is more near to live Orchestra music.
The only place you go regularly is the nearest Macdonald, the grease of meat rose to your brain and you wrote great foolishness.
Clearly you believe in the propaganda of Home Theater equipment makers that MC sound is high fidelity, this is the dream of all manufacturer of MultiCh Receivers.
You do not have the slightest idea of what is Hi-Fi and Hi-End. So I will told to you a hint:
The best amps in the world have always been tube amps, as Audio Note Japan (Ongaku SET), Audio Research (REF600/610 UltraLinear), Joule-Electra (VZN220 OTL Circlotron), Tenor Audio OTL, Wavac Audio (HE-833 SET), ATMA-SPHERE (MA-3 OTL Circlotron). If you use a Nelson Pass XA.5 or other fine transistor Class A amp its also a good second place. The best amps will ever be tube amps.
The only solid state came near a tube amp is the FM Acoustics Resolution Series at 17K euros for the entrance power amp model FM-111 ( 115W, 8 ohms ).
The 5.1 DSP equalized Receiver of MC users is a Mid Fi gear for low price mass consumers purposes.
Large recordings labels use a full mic tree cause they dont know how use 2 mics only and capture all the orchestra + hall reverb sound and do not have time to learn how to use Blumlein technique, plus they like to edit, mix up-down tracks and until use compressors.
Today 2009 you will find minimalist two mics recordings in audiophile labels as Chesky, Audioquest, and at the late Sheffield Labs which closing doors in 90's years, various labels were using minimalist recording as John Marks Recordings, Black Daliah and others I will not search for you.
Today Chesky use not two mics, but ONE STEREO MICROPHONE Soundfield Mark 5, if you read the SACD booklet of any recent release.
Puzzled yet, read this: In the begining of BIS label, they used recording with two mics only.
Before DSD, the best recordings on classical music since CBS created Stereo LP are firts place Sheffield Labs analog 30ips (better than RCA Living Stereo or Mercury Living Presence).
You should read some free Hi-End sites that dont accept advertisement and stop reading Home Theater stuff. Business grade ( $$$ ) magazines as TAS or Stereophile etc also have his neck hold by the money of the advertisers.
This thread is for Mr.Robert surveil the SACD public for BIS label. Lets stop this discussion.
Someone has drunk the Kool-Aid. No point in further discussion.
Kal
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