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nickc said:
That is really the question I have been trying toget to grips with; pure DSD direct to analog I take it is the holy grail of SACD reproduction.
In my earlier post, the 5.1 analog direct comparison I was making was still DSD Direct to Analog, though I understand that you want to compare the DSD Direct to Analog in the receiver, vs the direct to Analog in the SACD player, which is something that I had not been able to satisfactorily compare prior to my earlier post...
I will get back to you after the weekend with comparisons along those lines. During the week I prefer to spend what few listening cycles I have on just enjoying the music... ;)
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Post by nickc October 26, 2004 (12 of 22)
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DrOctodivx said:
In my earlier post, the 5.1 analog direct comparison I was making was still DSD Direct to Analog, though I understand that you want to compare the DSD Direct to Analog in the receiver, vs the direct to Analog in the SACD player, which is something that I had not been able to satisfactorily compare prior to my earlier post...
I will get back to you after the weekend with comparisons along those lines. During the week I prefer to spend what few listening cycles I have on just enjoying the music... ;)
Thanks Karl
that is exactly what I have been trying to get to grips with. As I think Lyle pointed out to me "theoretically" the shorter the analogue signal path the better and I suppose as long as the video circuits in the player are turned off there will be less "noise" in the player v. the receiver (if that makes any difference).
Anyway have fun listening!
Cheers
Nick
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Hi Nick,
I spent the last hour doing A/B comparisons between the 5.1 direct analog inputs and i-link direct stream playback with no equalization on my VSX-59txi.
For my comparisons I used the Runnicles' Orff Carmina Burana:
Orff: Carmina Burana - Atlanta SO/Runnicles
I chose this piece since I know it very well, and there are many subtle passages as well stronger passages.
My strategy was to replay the beginnings of the different tracks switching between the two modes then further into the track, to switch back and forth to attempt to detect differences.
For tracks 1-3 (O Fortuna, Fortune plango vulnera, Veris Leta Facies) I was hard pressed to detect any differences. I seemed to hear mostly the same details, and differences I heard were harder to quantify.
Track 4 (Omnia Sol Temperat) was a little different, and multiple repeated comparisons reinforced my opinion. The i-link direct stream version definitely had a tad more naturalness and dynamic to the solo singing. Track 5 (Ecce Gratum) reinforced this opinion the Chorus definitely sounded more natural and full in the i-link version.
Track 6 (Tanz) here I started hearing differences in the playback even for the non-vocal pieces, perhaps my ear was becoming more attuned to what to listen for. Though in none of my tests here did I notice any lack of detail, I could clearly (in a subtle way) hear slightly improved dynamics and openness in the playback via i-link vs. 5.1 analog direct.
After this, I mostly skipped through the remaining tracks, doing brief A/B comparisons, lingering for a bit longer on track 11 (Estuans Interius), and comfortably concluded that the i-link definitely had somewhat improved playback.
I have to emphasize, though, that the differences are very subtle and you need to take that into consideration when doing the necessary investment to upgrade your player/system for i-link capabilities. In less subtle passages, the differences are not nearly as noticeable, though in general vocals do gain a slight more naturalness in most cases (at least in this recording).
I hope this helps,
-Karl
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Post by mandel October 30, 2004 (14 of 22)
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I'm not up on i-link but would I be right in saying that the difference mainly depends on whether your SACD player or your surround amplifer has the better preamps? (Taking account of the shorter analog signal path for i-link too).
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I'm not up on i-link but would I be right in saying that the difference mainly depends on whether your SACD player or your surround amplifer has the better preamps? (Taking account of the shorter analog signal path for i-link too).
Hi Mandel,
Well, technically speaking, even when using 5.1 analog direct you are still going through the recievers pre-amp, even if hopefully only for gain adjustment. What you are probably referring to is that theoretically the DSD digital/analog conversion could be better in the SACD player than in the receiver. In my case, I imagine that the DSD to analog converters are about equal in both my SACD player (Pioneer DV-49ai) and my receiver (Pioneer VSX-59txi) since they are both top of the line Pioneer Elite components.
Beyond that, there are other potential differences other than the shorter analog path, such as the capability of the receiver to do the gain adjustment digitally before ever converting to Analog which theoretically yeilds cleaner signal.
-Karl
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Post by zeus October 30, 2004 (16 of 22)
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DrOctodivx said:
I imagine that the DSD to analog converters are about equal in both my SACD player (Pioneer DV-49ai) and my receiver (Pioneer VSX-59txi) since they are both top of the line Pioneer Elite components.
I believe the VSX-59txi converts to PCM at 88.2kHz on input ... less than ideal but there may be benefits (lower jitter) with such an implementation.
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I believe the VSX-59txi converts to PCM at 88.2kHz on input ... less than ideal but there may be benefits (lower jitter) with such an implementation.
For my comparison on 5.1 analog direct, I am using the Stream Direct: 3 ANA Direct mode which does no conversion to Digital. The manual state that in this mode "All Analog Sources are heard without any digital processing. All processing is done through the analog circuitry"
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Post by zeus October 30, 2004 (18 of 22)
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DrOctodivx said:
For my comparison on 5.1 analog direct, I am using the Stream Direct: 3 ANA Direct mode which does no conversion to Digital. The manual state that in this mode "All Analog Sources are heard without any digital processing. All processing is done through the analog circuitry"
Sorry, the conversion is for the iLink input.
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Sorry, the conversion is for the iLink input.
Hi Zeus,
Thanks for this info. I have been trying to find specific specs on SACD processing within the VSX-59txi, I assumed the DSD stream was converted to PCM for Equalization (though I have been unable to find any documentation stating at what khz), but I assumed that with Equalization turned off there should be no conversion. Do you have any links to more documentation on this, so that I can be as well informed about the capabilities of my receiver as possible.
I did notice that when equalization was turned on, I did lose some detail from the same testing as in my earlier post, however I did not see that loss of detail when playing with equalization turned off - in fact, if anything, the sound actually sounded slightly warmer and more natural than the direct 5.1 input from SACD.
Again, any references to any available documentation would be highly appreciated.
-Karl
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Post by crisp November 1, 2004 (20 of 22)
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DrOctodivx said:
Hi Zeus,
Thanks for this info. I have been trying to find specific specs on SACD processing within the VSX-59txi, I assumed the DSD stream was converted to PCM for Equalization (though I have been unable to find any documentation stating at what khz), but I assumed that with Equalization turned off there should be no conversion. Do you have any links to more documentation on this, so that I can be as well informed about the capabilities of my receiver as possible.
I did notice that when equalization was turned on, I did lose some detail from the same testing as in my earlier post, however I did not see that loss of detail when playing with equalization turned off - in fact, if anything, the sound actually sounded slightly warmer and more natural than the direct 5.1 input from SACD.
Again, any references to any available documentation would be highly appreciated.
-Karl
Karl
Sorry to intrude in your discussion as an outsider. I have the Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXi & DV-47Ai combination - the earlier version of the receiver - which I have enjoyed immensely for the past year. I would advise against taking the MCACC automatic setup for granted. That is where you start to equalize your system (Martin Logans in my case). But then you need to spend a lot of time getting the sound the way YOU really like it, using the manual setup functions for individual speaker volume and tonal balance. Especially the center speaker is tricky, and a subtle change of 1db in volume makes a difference (one is not supposed to hear a 1db difference, but trust me, it makes a big difference).
I always use the i.Link, simply because I want to make sure bass management is done correctly. I use the SX extension, which only means that the back speakers play the same as the surround speakers. I don't think that would add any distortion (except what is inherent from your back speakers). I have the back speakers in the THX configuration, 1 foot apart. For CDs I use NEO:6 MUSIC, which sounds best to my ears.
If I may take the discussion in a different direction, I have have been playing with an idea for a while. How do I store my 1000+ CDs on a terraByte of computer hard-drive and hook it to the receiver via i.Link? No compression please, pure PCM.
CHR
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