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I´ve recently bought a Sony NS-DVP705 SACD-player. Together with my Sony STR-DE545 reciever and my Kirksaeter (Prima 300?) speakers make up an OK system (for me at least...).
Now, my question is. For CD-signals I use a digital coaxial cable.
1) Are there differences in sound quality depending on the coaxiel cable I use? In other words: Are there differencde in quality here? I cannot understand this, because if the signal is digital, it is just 1s and 0s (bits), and the difference that supposedly is present in ordinary analog cables should therefore in my opinion not be present. Is this correct thinking?
2) Now the tricky part... The SACD-signal is sent via the analog output. Here I use the ordinary cheap and thin cables. BUT, everybody tells me to get good monster cables or something similar. I have testet by using good cables for the left speaker and cheap on the right speaker, but i cannot her any difference at all. Is the cabledogma just a hype to sell more cables, or am I missing something essentially when I am listening?
Hope somebody can help.
Thanks
Christian
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Post by nucaleena September 15, 2003 (2 of 20)
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Borchgrevink said:
I´ve recently bought a Sony NS-DVP705 SACD-player. Together with my Sony STR-DE545 reciever and my Kirksaeter (Prima 300?) speakers make up an OK system (for me at least...).
Now, my question is. For CD-signals I use a digital coaxial cable.
1) Are there differences in sound quality depending on the coaxiel cable I use? In other words: Are there differencde in quality here? I cannot understand this, because if the signal is digital, it is just 1s and 0s (bits), and the difference that supposedly is present in ordinary analog cables should therefore in my opinion not be present. Is this correct thinking?
2) Now the tricky part... The SACD-signal is sent via the analog output. Here I use the ordinary cheap and thin cables. BUT, everybody tells me to get good monster cables or something similar. I have testet by using good cables for the left speaker and cheap on the right speaker, but i cannot her any difference at all. Is the cabledogma just a hype to sell more cables, or am I missing something essentially when I am listening?
Hope somebody can help.
Thanks
Christian
Christian, since I'm no technician, I can be non-technical in reply. I used to be as sceptical as you, but that ceased when i last upgraded my speakers and we tried a variety of connections (I already used what I regarded as pretty decent ones). On very short comparisons, the difference wasn't always noticeable, but over a period of hours and then days it proved to be huge. Essentially, the better the cable, the less tiring the sound (from good cds and speakers) - after an hour or so, you can tell significant differences in sound, especially re smoothness. After two hours, you will know if your ears are "burning" or not. Sometimes thay can burn from too much new data, but sometimes they can burn from an almost undetectable rawness in sound, sometimes from both together. Good quality cables dramatically reduce this tiredness and improve long-term listening pleasure. This is especially important with SACD when you're getting so much new data that you could easily put tired ears down to new sounds. I'd recommend that you ask your dealer to let you hire, buy/return-refund or borrow different quality connecting cables for a few days. Then buy the ones you find smoothest/least tiring. Be warned though, they're likely to be the most expensive.
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Post by zeus September 15, 2003 (3 of 20)
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Opinions differ on cables. Here's mine:
Cables can make a huge difference in the quality of sound, but your system (especially your speakers) has to be fairly transparent for you to hear it. I suggest you borrow some REALLY expensive cables from your dealer and try them in your system. If you can't hear a difference, save your money. If you can, work your way down the range until you hit a good compromise between price and performance. Top brands to consider include (but definitely aren't limited to) Cardas, Nordost and Kimber. A rule of thumb is to spend roughly 20% of your total system cost on cables (interconnects, speaker, power cords etc).
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Post by Tireguy September 15, 2003 (4 of 20)
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I would have to respectfully disagree with our grand master and ring leader, the debate of what percentage to spend on component is as unending as the vinyl vs. digital debate. Having spent an awful lot on cables I surely wouldn't have done it if I wasn't hearing/enjoying the improvements. I don't feel everyone has to go for broke on cables but if you want to enjoy your system to its fullest potential you will need to shell out at least some $$ to get it. I do agree that the kimber entry level lines dubbed 4PR, 8PR, 4VS, 8VS, 4TC and 8TC are a GREAT place to start. I would stay clear of monster, you don't typically get a good value with them(advertising sure is expensive- cough*bose*cough) try searching at audiogon or audioasylum for more information on cables, you'll get a lot good ideas. You don't need to upgrade your cables, but as stated earlier in this thread you will find yourself not only able to listen for a longer period of time with out getting tired of it, but you'll want to listen more often; good cables tend to take the edge off what you hear with really cheap stuff. The differences you hear are not always black and white, you often have to listen for a week with the good cables and then put in your inexpensive ones and you'll hear the differences. Don't forget the most important thing if you take this voyage, ENJOY THE MUSIC!
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Any suggestions (price and brand) and webshops for digital coaxial cable and analogue interconnect cables (maybe also SCART) at an entry level? What I mean is not super high-end but entry-level...
Thanks alot for your help
Christian
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Post by nucaleena September 16, 2003 (6 of 20)
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Borchgrevink said:
Any suggestions (price and brand) and webshops for digital coaxial cable and analogue interconnect cables (maybe also SCART) at an entry level? What I mean is not super high-end but entry-level...
Thanks alot for your help
Christian
I heartily recommend Chord. If you can't afford Chord, then I've been impressed with QED as cheaper, but still quite acceptable connections.
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Post by randy September 16, 2003 (7 of 20)
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Personally, I don't buy into the "more expensive is better" claims. I think this is just so much FUD: "We cannot provide objective measurements to demonstrate that spending more money will make a difference, but you'd better spend it anyway, just in case." I subscribe to the philosophy that if an audible difference exists that is not electrically measurable, then we are not measuring right.
When it comes to digital interconnects, digital is digital. As long as there are no uncorrectable bit errors in the signal (which would create unmistakable noise) the quality of cable is not going to make any difference. (Not that digital audio is invincible. I do accept the claims that CD "clock jitter" can adversely impact sound quality, but there is no similarity between that issue and anything that can occur with digital interconnects.)
When it comes to analog audio interconnects, things are not as cut-and-dry. For my Denon universal player I bought into the FUD, buying Audioquest G-Snake cables at USD$25 per pair. For now, I am not going to bother listening for sonic distortion; I accept this explanation http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm that "no metallic conductor causes (non-linear) distortion." Perhaps I'll get a chance to read up on ABX testing, then perform a test later. Instead I compared the noise floor of several cables by devising an extreme test of listening to a quiet source. For my test I set the amplifier volume of my Sony receiver at max, listened using my "open" Grado headphones and with the room quieted to well below 50 dB. I compared the Audioquests, RCA's High Performance line (as I recall I paid $15, including composite video), and the cable that came with the Denon. The results surprised me. The largest source of noise was ... my prized Denon DVD-2900! The Denon's noise surpassed any of the cables in my test. Using my quietest source (my Sony CD jukebox) the stock cable seemed slightly noisier than the others. I could not perceive a difference between the other cables. The noise level from all sources was too low to hear with my refrigerator running (which contributes about 50 dB of noise to the room).
I'll have to revisit the reference: "Science and Subjectivism in Audio" http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ This promises to be interesting reading.
I cannot help but laugh at claims that spending $100 on a fancy power cable to plug into a $0.39 Leviton wall receptacle could possibly make any difference at all. The only possible power cord effect would involve having inadequate capacity for the load. I find it hard to believe that a manufacturer of a $1000 (or even a $500) piece of equipment would spec an inadequate power cable to save, say, $.25. Denon spent more than that just to put a detachable cable on this player.
Currently I give the interconnect cabling industry not much more credit than I give the dietary supplement industry (which is nil). In neither case does the industry submit product claims for objective testing.
No more "snake oil" for me. In the future I may go back to the GE Ultra line of cables. They look OK and they are more flexible, not retaining the original shape of the packaging as do the other cables I've bought. The only problem is Target carries a poor selection, and the nearest Fry's is not convenient to visit.
But the original question regarded Monster Cable. If I felt the need to spend that amount of money, I would spend it on another brand (like I did with the Audioquest).
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Post by zeus September 16, 2003 (8 of 20)
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randy said:
But the original question regarded Monster Cable. If I felt the need to spend that amount of money, I would spend it on another brand (like I did with the Audioquest).
I think you're listening for the wrong thing. Cables can change lots of things: make a system overly bright, widen the soundstage, warm it up, make it zing, lower the bottom end, make bass tight or loose ... even turn a tenor into a baritone which was my experience with one particular cable. But only if your system is transparent enough. Forget the theory and just do some listening. You might be surprised.
A good place to start is Recommended Components published twice a year in Stereophile. Where my experiences have overlapped, I think their comments have been spot on. It doesn't help that probably 90% of the world's cables come from a single factory in Taiwan but with different skins. Some seemingly highly regarded brands (I won't mention them here for fear of libel!) selling for top dollars are junk ... price isn't necessarily a determinant of quality.
I found top-of-the-range Audioquest cables to be pretty good, but for this money I'd listen around. And, I agree, likely not Monster!
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Borchgrevink said:
I´ve recently bought a Sony NS-DVP705 SACD-player. Together with my Sony STR-DE545 reciever and my Kirksaeter (Prima 300?) speakers make up an OK system (for me at least...).
Well, like most people that started out with the audio bug years ago....... I started with the "throw away cables" never thinking much about it. Then I started to go the other way, buying some pricey interconnect, and speaker wire, and drooling over the hyper expensive ones.
Now I'm kind of in the middle. I believe in hyper pure copper, really good solder like high silver content, or pure silver wire interconnet. Of course, a good jacket/shield, and jacks to round out the package and that's it.
I now own outlaw interconnet, those internet guys made famous with their outlaw amp, and I'm happy. With all those 200 dollar a foot cables floating around, making outrageous claims in regard to dilectrics, special metals, windings, etc, its hard to believe any of it.
On the issue of Monster, their stuff isn't bad, but I've noticed that some no hype internet companies selling pure silver interconnect for about 100 bucks for a 1 meter pair, VS Monster selling cable WAY more expensive, and selling plain copper.
The bottom line to what could be a 10,000 word discussion, Monster won't really deliver value for the dollar, they spend too much money on things other than the cable, like advertising, and such. They are almost, but not quite the marketing machine that Bose is. But alas, nobody could ever touch bose.
- The coax toslink issue - Here's my take on it. Forget about what can be measured for a moment, or what we can (or think) we can hear. The digital signal coming off a disc is light, then changed into an electrical signal. For Toslink, that is changed to light once again, and then back to an electrical signal of ones and zeros once again at the other end. So you are depending on this light transforming device on two ends, in this case, the one in the player, and the other on the receiver. How good are they? Is one better than the other?
For coax, after coming off the disc, and becoming an electrical signal of ones and zeros, it remains that way to the next component. Can anyone tell me that changing the ones and zeros from an electrical signal, to light for the Toslink is perfect? Well nothing ever is, so how much is lost? What is the error rate?
All things being equal, I'd go with a coax. I don't use a digital connection for my CD listening, but I do for my DVD/surround needs. I go analog for my CD/SACD listening.
- Tony
http://www.epinions.com/user-sslabs
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Post by Khorn September 17, 2003 (10 of 20)
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zeus said:
I think you're listening for the wrong thing. Cables can change lots of things: make a system overly bright, widen the soundstage, warm it up, make it zing, lower the bottom end, make bass tight or loose ... even turn a tenor into a baritone which was my experience with one particular cable. But only if your system is transparent enough. Forget the theory and just do some listening. You might be surprised.
Although I haven't experienced as wide ranging effects as you describe I tend to agree with you. In my particular case different Cardas cables have proven to provide me with a sound that I like in my particulatr type of system.
Cables can be used as a sort of "fine tuning" instrument that augments the attributes of your system while not changing it to any great degree. Cables cannot improve the quality of your components only help them at preform better or in some cases hinder them depending on your choices. "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ABSOLUTELY TRANSPARENT CABLE". CABLE IS A COMPONENT LIKE ANY OTHER AND ALL COMPONENTS ADD SOMETHING BE IT BIG OR SMALL TO THE ULTIMATE SOUND OF A SYSTEM. What YOU have to decide is if you can hear the effect the cable has on your system and if you like it or not.
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