Post by dobyblue September 17, 2008 (11 of 22)
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k-spin said:
Not sure that's true. There are about 10 - 15 or so Blu-Ray machines on the market at the moment. There are many more SACD compatible players available.
I'm not sure how many actual SACD models are currently available, but I wouldn't think it was substantially more than 10-15 and in any case I was referring to actual units sold.
Standalone players in the US right now are averaging over 120,000/month and there are 15+ million PS3's on the market.
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Post by dobyblue September 17, 2008 (12 of 22)
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Ear said:
See, this is what puzzles me for quite a while now. When SACD sells so poorly, why are some many titles sold out? I know of CD titles that are given back to Companies and than are being destroyed. Popular CD titles. Given that they (at least in the beginning) had the same print numbers as CD's this is pretty good.
How can people charge 100 Euro and more for OOP titles if there is no market? We should be finding SACD'S for cents by now, if they are not wanted. OK, some used ones are going for around 6 Dollars, but heck, I have seen popular CD's for a cent. Again, I think Companies do not want SACD, but not because it does not sell well, but because you cannot milk it as much as you can CD (remaster of a remaster etc. Even though you maybe could with some titles :-))
I don't see why it would puzzle you. Most SACD runs are done in limited numbers because it's accepted by most people who know of SACD that it's an audiophile format - it's a niche market.
Naturally people can charge 100 Euro's for OOP titles, but that has little to do with the format itself. OOP copies of Neil Young's "Harvest" go for close to that. There are vinyl records going for twice the price of current SACD's like Elton John, Depeche Mode, Genesis, etc.
I can find plenty of SACD's that aren't OOP for between $14.99 to $19.99 on any number of websites like Best Buy and Amazon.
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Post by rammiepie September 17, 2008 (13 of 22)
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I was all set to purchase Metallica's death magnetic from Amazon for $8.99 when the reviews lambasted the compressed sound. Supposedly, the band was on tour in Europe and could not oversee the final mix and the tapes arrived at the the pressing plants overly compressed. Those familiar with Guitar Hero III (compatible with X-box/Playstation) will be interested in knowing that the album is NOT compressed in this format. One can only hope that Warner comes out with their infamous MVI version in 96/24 encoding after SO MANY complaints from dissatisfied customers asked for an immediate remaster...so at least those of us with universal players can at least enjoy it in a hi-def format. Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware!!!!!!!)
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dobyblue said:
How exactly has SACD been accepted? There are already more Blu-ray devices on the market than SACD devices and the latter's been out for 7 years longer.
...
I was referring to actual units sold.
...
Standalone players in the US right now are averaging over 120,000/month and there are 15+ million PS3's on the market.
Hang on. Of this 15M PS3s sold, the first 7M or so are not only BD-compatible but also SACD-compatible. That adds to more than 13M SACD players and SACD-compatible DVD players and Home Theater Systems already sold by 2006 (perhaps 14M by now) while apart from PS3 perhaps only a million or so dedicated BD players have been sold.
So the numbers compare more like 20M for SACD vs 10M for BD. I may be a million or so off but the order of magnitude is correct.
If Sony hadn't removed SACD playback from the 3rd generation PS3, BD's installed base might never overtake SACD's :-)
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DragonFly said:
Makes me glad I am currently awaiting three Metallica re-releases in 180g, 45rpm vinyl. :) DM is scheduled for release also.
This article analyses Depeche Mode albums (remasters and 'Playing The Angel'):
http://www.sharoma.com/trading/loudness.htm
Which versions are they using here? The RBCD versions? Surely not the SACDs? Or have these fallen prey to this trend, just like Genesis SACD remasters apparently have?
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Post by Ear September 18, 2008 (16 of 22)
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dobyblue said:
I don't see why it would puzzle you. Most SACD runs are done in limited numbers because it's accepted by most people who know of SACD that it's an audiophile format - it's a niche market.
Response EAR:
Uhmm, dobyblue, have you read my post?
First I have asumed, and I guess it is true that in the beginning the companies did not see it as a niche market and therefore the numbers of the sacd issues where much higher than now. (But OK, it is just a guess)
dobyblue said:
Naturally people can charge 100 Euro's for OOP titles, but that has little to do with the format itself. OOP copies of Neil Young's "Harvest" go for close to that. There are vinyl records going for twice the price of current SACD's like Elton John, Depeche Mode, Genesis, etc.
Response EAR:
You might be right. But my point is, there can only be a collectors scene, if there is a bigger interest in something. A vinyl collector would not necessarily collect SACDs as well. And if there is a collectors scene you could make money of it (as a record company). But only Zeus can actually say something about the numbers that he has sold over his site and the numbers in general I guess.
dobyblue said:
I can find plenty of SACD's that aren't OOP for between $14.99 to $19.99 on any number of websites like Best Buy and Amazon.
Response EAR:
Yes, but this is not really cheap either. You can find plenty of CD's around 6 Euro. BUT...
jpc.de had a sale going with Bob Dylan and Peter Gabriel and then response was overwhelming they said. They even went so far to post in their blog that they could not understand, why companies would not offer sales of their own, and rather kept on whining about the declining CD market. The Genenis titles were doing pretty well too.
It is a niche market but I guess because the companies want it that way. That is all I was trying to get across in the first place.
But I might be wrong.
Cheers Ear
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Post by dobyblue September 18, 2008 (17 of 22)
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The Seventh Taylor said:
So the numbers compare more like 20M for SACD vs 10M for BD. I may be a million or so off but the order of magnitude is correct.
If Sony hadn't removed SACD playback from the 3rd generation PS3, BD's installed base might never overtake SACD's :-)
I think Sony made a mistake removing SACD from the PS3, but I've chatted to higher ups at SonyBMG in the new product development and it leads me to believe that talks have been taking place for a while between SonyBMG, UMG, EMI and Warner Music about releasing albums on Blu-ray Disc because of the extra's it affords the consumer.
In order to save a dwindling CD market, the record companies know they need more than just "high resolution audio" to interest the average consumer.
I do think the numbers are a little off there though - there are over 15 million PS3's sold, so there has to be more than 10m BD-players from the PS3 alone. Add in the 3 million standalone BD players and you're currently around 20m SACD to 18m BD. One is 9 years old, one is 2.5 years old.
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Post by rammiepie September 18, 2008 (18 of 22)
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this thread has run the gamut from how poorly sounding/compressed Death Magnetic sounds to how many PS3 are out there. FYI, a number of people who own PS aren't even aware of their SACD capabilities and use them strictly as gaming consoles. Sony's ommission of SACD in its latest incarnation addressed this issue. And a well known fact in audio is the more you try to cram into a component, the less likely it will perform as well as a stand-a-lone SACD player...thus, the move to DEDICATED stereo SACD players. It doesn't have to deal with the multi-channel element and is dedicated to pure stereo. And don't kid yourselves, Blu-RAY is not selling that well and whether the record labels jump into that format for music in this teetering economy remains to be seen. Unfortunately, the I-Pod with all these revolutionary new docking stations seems to be the will of the buying public. Didn't Metallica's "Death Magnetic" prove that (compression is a friend to the I-Pod)
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dobyblue said:
I do think the numbers are a little off there though - there are over 15 million PS3's sold, so there has to be more than 10m BD-players from the PS3 alone. Add in the 3 million standalone BD players and you're currently around 20m SACD to 18m BD. One is 9 years old, one is 2.5 years old.
ALL PS3s are BD-compatible so that makes 15M out of 15M. The 3M number more or less fits with the prediction from this market researcher that 80% of the BD hardware market in 2008 will consist of PS3s. http://www.abiresearch.com/press/1116-Blu-ray%92s+Market+Dominance+Will+Be+Delayed
Now let's see when BD releases overtake SACD releases. Even with all movies included they're not even nearly there yet. The number of music video releases on BD is quite negligible.
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Post by Tobias September 19, 2008 (20 of 22)
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rammiepie said:
...compression is a friend to the I-Pod
What has the iPod to do with (dynamic) compression?
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