Post by raveer March 7, 2008 (71 of 103)
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[Transferred from the "Why are we getting recent threads about DVD-Audio?]
Post by FunkyMonkey Today 02:58 am (29 of 29)
reply
Julien said:
Dan, I'm well aware that Oppo/Receiver in pure DSD via HDMI can give great results for the buck. But you must be aware that the very high prices that many audiophiles pay for their equipment are not only for psychological satisfaction. And I can tell you that with the best CD players out there, very few SACD players will outperform their sound. I'm talking 5000$ and more SACD players here. Not even to mention Oppo that will easily be outperformed by even the cheapest Marantz SACD player.
About digital connection, it is theoretically good, but the circuitry inside a receiver is so miles away from that of a proper audiophile amplifier that in most cases digital interconnects can only mean cheap but good for the price. This will change some day though, and many active speakers already show an impressive advantage by shortening the analogue path.
Good sound reproduction is often much more about careful application of physics than technology. So of course, when you are used to the quality of top audiophile components, you will hear a huge sound distortion as soon as there is a receiver in a system. Comparatively, that would mean no air in the sound, a messy soundstage (obvious only with "accoustic" music, which mostly means classical), much less "be there" feeling, much less details which also means hardly any of that hall sound that creates the live feeling, etc. And while even cheap multi-channel still brings some kind of spatial "be in the hall" feeling, assuming that its live experience is more real than an expensive stereo system would be either stubborn, biassed or blind (please anyone don't start me on mch vs stereo, I love both and still prefer very carefully set multi-channel).
I think we all find what we prefer, and more important what suits our room. But to sum it up, in this market quality always comes at a price, unless you are a very skilled DIY guy.
I hope I was answering your question.
Funkey Monkey replied:
I must say, whilst one cannot argue against your reasoning or experience, to say that quality music can ONLY be achieved at a certain price point is absolute drivel (for want of a better word) best consigned to the pre-HDMI age. Not that HDMI is a great connection, but the generation of electronics that utilise it are indicative of a new generation of machines that give what you might have once called audiophile performance at mid-quality home theatre prices.
That is to say, for the price of a mid-level home theatre, one can simultaneously acquire an audiophile level (as of 5 years ago, to pick an arbitary timespan) SACD system.
I think people are too quick to dismiss such an idea based on theory or more likely based on their own old-school prejudices about what you must pay or what electronics must be contained to get a good sound.
Or maybe I really do have very bad hearing.
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Funky Monkey said:
I must say, whilst one cannot argue against your reasoning or experience, to say that quality music can ONLY be achieved at a certain price point is absolute drivel (for want of a better word) best consigned to the pre-HDMI age. Not that HDMI is a great connection, but the generation of electronics that utilise it are indicative of a new generation of machines that give what you might have once called audiophile performance at mid-quality home theatre prices.
That is to say, for the price of a mid-level home theatre, one can simultaneously acquire an audiophile level (as of 5 years ago, to pick an arbitary timespan) SACD system.
I think people are too quick to dismiss such an idea based on theory or more likely based on their own old-school prejudices about what you must pay or what electronics must be contained to get a good sound.
Or maybe I really do have very bad hearing.
Here in Upstate New York, its nearly impossible to find a decent audio store - let alone find either the kind of equipment Julien speaks of OR the Oppo / Onyko equipment set up for audition. If one wishes to learn about it one must do so on one's own dime so to speak, purchase from a vendor where if the experience is unsatisfactory, one can return the equipment at little or no monetary loss.
That said, reports from people like the Funky guy are important but it's difficult to assess his credibility - not that he would not speak truth as he sees it, (oops I mean "hears it") but would his truth seem to be the same truth we seek as self proclaimed audiophiles?
I know of no one who has auditioned the hdmi connected stuff in the context of what we would all admit is a "reference system" and written of the conclusions drawn. So I ask you Funky Monkey, what are you comparing these items to and are you using acoustic music, or electronically generated pop music? (by electronically generated I mean that which may in part - such as a voice - go into a microphone but what comes out bears little resemblance to what you would hear from the same singer not equipped with a microphone, thereby depriving one of a "live reference".)
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Post by Julien March 10, 2008 (74 of 103)
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Windsurfer said:
[Transferred from the "Why are we getting recent threads about DVD-Audio?]
Thanks Bruce, I was getting really off topic.
Here's my latest reply to Funky:
Sure. But also any manufacturer is not going to break the market rules. If you're the head of an audio equipment company, you will likely be aware of the best you can make, and in what price range it should be. Accordingly, when you want to put a few cheaper models on the market you might actually spend a lot more time and money to find the way and the materials for it to sound obviously worse than your best model, but still competitively in its price range. Even when a company like Sony presents a new "top of the range" product, trust me they'll never put all the best they know of in it. They just need to stay competitive, keeping in mind that they might have to come up with something better at any time. At the end, if you're a skilled technician and open a machine you will always find a lot a bad quality components in even expensive equipment.
So back to what I was saying: Oppo-PS3/HDMI/receiver may sound pretty good, but high end components are many many times better that's all. Remember that even at 20.000$ for a player or amplifier there can be amazing quality FOR THE PRICE. And even you wouldn't appreciate Oppo after hearing thoses things. It's a dangerous route for sure. Go hear for yourself, and some day you'll know what I mean.
Of course we all love music first, and the dilemma at the end is: the better the equipment, the greater the quality of the musical experience, BUT the more you upgrade and are able to hear differences in equipment, the more you forget to appreciate the music. Sometimes you become unable to. At the top of the ladder, it will take a lot for an expert to recognise quality in other people's work if it's not as good or better of what he knows of.
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Post by dobyblue March 10, 2008 (75 of 103)
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raveer said:
DSD stream over HDMI was introduced with HDMI 1.2 specification. Not many used it, as 1.2a was just around the corner, and some just waited for 1.3. OPPO DV-980 is an eaxmple of device with HDMI 1.2a capable of sending DSD over HDMI.
Links:
http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#75
http://www.hdmi.org/press/pr/pr_20050823.aspx
If you download latest spec 1.3a you'll see in ChangeLog that chapters 7.9 and 7.10 were first introduced in 1.2.
Absolutely correct. HDMI 1.2 and HDMI 1.2a both allowed for the transfer of 1-bit audio, unfortunately it was the choice of the manufacturs to not include DSD in their equipment despite the usage of HDMI 1.2.
The Oppo is a rare unit simply because Oppo bothered to include native DSD-out capabilities, rare for a North American unit.
Hopefully Oppo's first Blu-ray player will also include the audio prowess of the 980H and more.
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Ok, I will address the points raised by Windurfer and Julien by setting my listening into context so it can be appreciated where I am coming from.
I listen to all kinds of music for my own pleasure. However, for critical listening, i.e. to compare one system to another (which I have very little experience of if I am honest, although enough to establish a benchmark for my current setup), I always listen to stuff that is recorded carefully by repute or in actuality, e.g. records from Linn, the Blue Coast Collection, and other SACD's that are mastered in DSD. Of course, I listen to CD's too that were in all likelihood mastered on tape but who knows - acoustic stuff like Ray LaMontagne, Norah Jones, Eva Cassidy, Nick Drake, classical CD's.
Now, I have listened to enough acoustic instruments, and live bands to know what sounds good and what sounds false, and I have to say the onyl area I am lacking is classical listening in a symphony hall - something I hope to rectify as soon as a suitable concert is pt on at a suitable time, in the Birmingham Symphony Hall in England - the nearest "truely world class" venue to where I live.
As for my listening room, it doubles up as a living room, so it contains thick carpeting, thick walls, soft furnishings, and curtains. It is a nice oblong shape with classical proportions (20foot into front bay by 12feet wide). Seating position is at one end of the length, so is 15 feetfrom the axis of the front speakers. The front speakers are maybe 9 feet apart. So I feel that the acoustics of my room are well sorted out given symmetry, proportion and ambient materials. Anyone care to disagree, I'd be happy to take note so I can improve things further, although I am limited due to room usage!
For CD listening I tend to use Audyssey room correction which makes the music sparkle with exemplary clarity at the expense of "warmth" of sound. I prefer this truth to the original recording - if I want warmth in my ears, I'll wear ear muffs. However, for SACD, Audyssey is not an option as the incoming signal to my receiver is 176kHz from the PS3 (where is the DSD output, Sony, so I can comapre??). I prefer SACD layers of course - they have the clarity of Audysseyed CD tracks, and more airiness. And, of course, well-used multi-channel tracks can add to the sense of "beign there".
So to sum up, I am not comparing my system to super high-end ones directly, merely reflecting that in your average size living or listening room, one can get what you may have called audiophile sound using modern-day processign power. At this stage, it is fitting for me to state that I demo'd many £2k to £3k systems at the turn of the century (CD-stereo amp-speaker combos) with a view to upgrading a budget stereo system, and although impressed, I have to say, I could not justify such an outlay for relatively little improvement in sound over the budget system I had at the time - especially with multi-channel systems takign off at the time.
Nowadays, capping your budget at even £3k buys a stunning system. I'm certainly saying, I bought a darn=fine soundign system for less cash than that, but I am not saying that you could not get a better one by spending twice that. But would it be worth it? My ears wouldn't say so...based on previous experience.
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Post by msandyck March 11, 2008 (77 of 103)
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After some digging and experimenting found that I failed to hold to my own principle of not trusting the equipment's manuals for tech details ...
The Marantz DV7001 manual claims it doesn't support SACD output over HDMI, only direct analog output, and it's got HMDI v1.2. The AV receiver SR8002 has HDMI 1.3a, and the manual claims it does support SACD output over HDMI. As I switched off the HDMI link for SACD playback, it never occured to me that it could work. Guess what, it does. Big question now is if it's DSD going over the HDMI link or LPCM .. let's see how good Marantz tech support is ...
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Post by robstl March 11, 2008 (78 of 103)
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FunkyMonkey said:
...
However, for SACD, Audyssey is not an option as the incoming signal to my receiver is 176kHz from the PS3 (where is the DSD output, Sony, so I can comapre??).
...
Hey, FunkyMonkey --
You probably know how to do this already, and you may not _want_ to do it, but I've set up my PS3 to send out ~88kHz SA-CD multichannel so that my Onkyo can work its Audyssey magic. In my listening room/speaker set-up this sounds much better than the unprocessed 176kHz signal.
-Rob
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robstl said:
Hey, FunkyMonkey --
You probably know how to do this already, and you may not _want_ to do it, but I've set up my PS3 to send out ~88kHz SA-CD multichannel so that my Onkyo can work its Audyssey magic. In my listening room/speaker set-up this sounds much better than the unprocessed 176kHz signal.
-Rob
Rob, I didn't know that, so thanks for the heads up.
Will give it a bash tonight if I get time.
However, I had a problem with my receiver last night (the kids had set the Onkyo to HDMI throughput and I was reading the manual to get a picture back from the PS3). During the course of reading the Onkyo's manual, it mentioned the DSD settings option. There is ON or OFF.
ON=DSP processing applied to the incmoing DSD signal
OFF=DSP processing by-passed for an incmoing DSD signal
Now, the question is, what does it mean by DSP - is it simply the relatively simple stuff like DPL2, concert hall, i.e. the pseudo effects garbage? Or is it the tasty stuff like Audyssey? I doubt it would be Audyssey right, cos then there are only 2 possibilities:
1. DSD to PCM conversion takes place in the Onkyo receiver - I doubt this form the many discussions on this and other forums.
2. The Onkyo is one mega powerful beast.
Now, 2 would be surprising because as we all now, applying room acoustics signal processing to a DSD or analogue signal is pretty darned complex. However, with modern electronics beign so powerful, it could be a possiblity.
However, all things considered, I reckon when it talks about DSP in relation DSD, I'm pretty sure it's the simple stuff like concert hall, etc - after all, the Onkyo can apply Audyssey to 88kHz PCM, but not 176kHz PCM.
Sorry, just thinking aloud. :-)
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robstl said:
Hey, FunkyMonkey --
You probably know how to do this already, and you may not _want_ to do it, but I've set up my PS3 to send out ~88kHz SA-CD multichannel so that my Onkyo can work its Audyssey magic. In my listening room/speaker set-up this sounds much better than the unprocessed 176kHz signal.
-Rob
I have replied to this in the PS3 thread.
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