Post by apspr November 29, 2007 (1 of 103)
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Hi folks,
After enjoying two-channel SACD for years, I have decided to take the plunge into multichannel (I'm a total newbie there). Have purchased an Oppo DV-980H as a painless way of getting my feet wet with a multichannel source. It offers the option of playing SACD directly through HDMI rather than analog/RCA. So if I understand correctly, the next issue is getting an amp that not only has HDMI 1.2 or 1.3 but decodes DSD directly rather than downsampling it to PCM.
This helpful sa-cd.net (which I just found) contains an FAQ page that lists several newer receivers that do this:
/faq#playback10
Couple of questions:
1. Are the Marantz units in fact set up to decode DSD directly, and do they have 1.3? I know some Marantzes are still using 1.1
2. Has anyone actually compared the SACD sound played through HDMI to typical analog connectors? Is it worth the extra $$ for the more expensive amplification?
3. Any thoughts on the Yamaha V2700 versus Onkyo SR-805? They're pretty comparable on price, so anything you know that distinguishes them?
Thanks!
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I am wondering how many of those receivers that receive DSD directly use a DAC that converts the DSD directly to analog and how many of them use PCM as an intermediary, then convert to analog? Don't ask why anyone would use PCM as an intermediary, just realize that it happens and even in SACD players!
My Sony XA9000ES player uses PCM if you use the channel offsets function, but otherwise is DSD direct to analog and I can tell you that the two sound different. I like it much better in "DSD Direct".
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As I understand direct DAC from DSD is onyl possible usign Sigma-Delta DACs. No receivers, even those listed will do this. They will all go the DSD-PCM-Analogue route.
So the best option for surround sound is to get a SACD player that has non-PCM decoding, i.e. does Sigma-Delta conversion, then get a receiver, or pre-power amp combo, that has 5.1 analogue input.
So, in other words, the only benefit of having a DSD-capable receiver is that the Digital to Analogue conversion might be better than a do-it-all source, e.g. the Oppo mentioned above.
If my understanding, as outlined above, has gone astray as a result of the myriad threads I ahve read on this subject, then please correct me. I'm sure you will.
:-)
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Post by robstl November 29, 2007 (4 of 103)
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apspr said:
Hi folks,
After enjoying two-channel SACD for years, I have decided to take the plunge into multichannel (I'm a total newbie there). Have purchased an Oppo DV-980H as a painless way of getting my feet wet with a multichannel source. It offers the option of playing SACD directly through HDMI rather than analog/RCA. So if I understand correctly, the next issue is getting an amp that not only has HDMI 1.2 or 1.3 but decodes DSD directly rather than downsampling it to PCM.
This helpful sa-cd.net (which I just found) contains an FAQ page that lists several newer receivers that do this:
/faq#playback10
Couple of questions:
1. Are the Marantz units in fact set up to decode DSD directly, and do they have 1.3? I know some Marantzes are still using 1.1
2. Has anyone actually compared the SACD sound played through HDMI to typical analog connectors? Is it worth the extra $$ for the more expensive amplification?
3. Any thoughts on the Yamaha V2700 versus Onkyo SR-805? They're pretty comparable on price, so anything you know that distinguishes them?
Thanks!
Hi -- I recently got the Onkyo 805 and the Oppo 980. I've been very happy with the combination. The Onkyo 805 takes in DSD from the Oppo 980 via HDMI and then:
1. You can use a direct mode, which bypasses all processing and (presumably) does not use PCM conversion.
2. You can process the sound, via PCM conversion, with bass management and time alignment, as well as Audyssey equalization if you want it.
There is also a cryptic option for DSD time delay/lip sync, though it is simply unclear from everything I've read if this uses PCM conversion or not.
I usually use the PCM processing, since I have small speakers which need bass management, and a somewhat difficult room acoustically which gets a lot of help from the time alignment and equalization. The benefits have been obvious to my ears, so much so that since I got the Oppo/Onkyo, I've been taking discs out of my Sony SACD carousel changer to play them with the Oppo! I think that a lot depends on your room and speakers; if you've got full range speakers, a seat equally distant from the speakers, and very good room acoustics, the multichannel analog connectors will likely sound great without the extra $$ for the AV receiver. I've never been fortunate enough to have such a room/speaker combination, though. And, the Onkyo has pretty, shiny blue lights, too! :-)
I reserve DSD Direct (ie no bass management, time alignment, equalization) for solo violin, acoustic guitar and similar recordings.
The only downside I've found with the Onkyo/Oppo combination is that it takes the Onkyo 805 a few seconds to figure out what's coming in over HDMI, switch to DSD processing, etc. This is not much bother to me; I just push pause on the player, then take my seat. Your level of annoyance may vary. Maybe this is something that a firmware upgrade on the Oppo could address, even though it really isn't the Oppo's problem. Speaking of which, before I got an Oppo firmware upgrade, the Onkyo 805 couldn't figure out that an LFE channel was coming through over HDMI (apparently a problem on the receiver's end with channel flags). Oppo's customer service response on this (getting out a beta firmware within a several weeks of the issue being recognized) was really terrific.
I can't compare to the Yamaha V2700 you asked about.
Congrats on the Oppo and good luck with your other choices --
-Rob
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apspr said:
Are the Marantz units in fact set up to decode DSD directly, and do they have 1.3? I know some Marantzes are still using 1.1
Yes, the ones listed here are DSD-compatible.
It's the SR5002 that has HDMI v1.1 inputs.
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Post by Sigfred November 29, 2007 (6 of 103)
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One big advantage with DSD over HDMI is that a receivers bass and time delay management is far better than most players, and some receivers can do some room corrections as well. For those that needs it, and that probably includes most people. A possible downside is that there will be jitter (data not arriving in a timely manner) that may be audible but studies done indicates that this is not likely to be an issue anymore.
In upcoming January issue of Stereophile there will be a review of the Oppo 980 by Kal Rubinson where DSD over HDMI will be tested. I think that the receiver in the test is an Onkyo. Rubinson is quite active on avsforum.com and my impression - reading between the lines - is that he is positive to the 980's capability with DSD over HDMI.
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Sigfred said:
One big advantage with DSD over HDMI is that a receivers bass and time delay management is far better than most players, and some receivers can do some room corrections as well. For those that needs, and that probably includes most people. A possible downside is that there will be jitter (data not arriving in a timely manner) that may be audible but studies done indicates that this is not likely to be an issue anymore.
In upcoming January issue of Stereophile there will be a review of the Oppo 980 by Kal Rubinson where DSD over HDMI will be tested. I think that the receiver in the test is an Onkyo. Rubinson is quite active on avsforum.com and my impression - reading between the lines - is that he is positive to the 980's capability with DSD over HDMI.
Excellent reading. Thanks.
To a previous poster, even if "Pure" mode is used in Onkyo, the DSD will still be converted to PCM because that's how the Burr Brown DACs work in teh Onkyo. Well, that is my understanding!
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Post by apspr November 29, 2007 (8 of 103)
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robstl said:
Hi -- I recently got the Onkyo 805 and the Oppo 980. I've been very happy with the combination. The Onkyo 805 takes in DSD from the Oppo 980 via HDMI and then:
1. You can use a direct mode, which bypasses all processing and (presumably) does not use PCM conversion.
2. You can process the sound, via PCM conversion, with bass management and time alignment, as well as Audyssey equalization if you want it.
There is also a cryptic option for DSD time delay/lip sync, though it is simply unclear from everything I've read if this uses PCM conversion or not.
I usually use the PCM processing, since I have small speakers which need bass management, and a somewhat difficult room acoustically which gets a lot of help from the time alignment and equalization. The benefits have been obvious to my ears, so much so that since I got the Oppo/Onkyo, I've been taking discs out of my Sony SACD carousel changer to play them with the Oppo! I think that a lot depends on your room and speakers; if you've got full range speakers, a seat equally distant from the speakers, and very good room acoustics, the multichannel analog connectors will likely sound great without the extra $$ for the AV receiver. I've never been fortunate enough to have such a room/speaker combination, though. And, the Onkyo has pretty, shiny blue lights, too! :-)
I reserve DSD Direct (ie no bass management, time alignment, equalization) for solo violin, acoustic guitar and similar recordings.
The only downside I've found with the Onkyo/Oppo combination is that it takes the Onkyo 805 a few seconds to figure out what's coming in over HDMI, switch to DSD processing, etc. This is not much bother to me; I just push pause on the player, then take my seat. Your level of annoyance may vary. Maybe this is something that a firmware upgrade on the Oppo could address, even though it really isn't the Oppo's problem. Speaking of which, before I got an Oppo firmware upgrade, the Onkyo 805 couldn't figure out that an LFE channel was coming through over HDMI (apparently a problem on the receiver's end with channel flags). Oppo's customer service response on this (getting out a beta firmware within a several weeks of the issue being recognized) was really terrific.
I can't compare to the Yamaha V2700 you asked about.
Congrats on the Oppo and good luck with your other choices --
-Rob
Thanks all you folks, for your very helpful thoughts-- I had suspected that PCM may ultimately be inevitable at some point in the chain at this level.
But still, the Onkyo sounds like an excellent receiver that will work well with the Oppo (which came today!!).
Robstl, thanks for your comment, which was especially on point. I see you are a Mahler/Shostakovich/etc. guy, like me-- I have a whole bunch of the SACD issues of their symphonies but have never heard them in multichannel yet-- I'm hoping I'm in for a treat...? Feel free to email me with any recommendations of your favorites at apspr@msn.com
Thanks,
Tim Newcomb
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Post by robstl November 29, 2007 (9 of 103)
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FunkyMonkey said:
Excellent reading. Thanks.
To a previous poster, even if "Pure" mode is used in Onkyo, the DSD will still be converted to PCM because that's how the Burr Brown DACs work in teh Onkyo. Well, that is my understanding!
I'm fairly certain that the 805 and higher do _not_ convert DSD to PCM in Direct/Pure modes. Of course, it's not always easy to get straight answers on this sort of thing from the manuals. The 805 manual says:
"In listening modes other than DSD Direct, DSD sources are converted and handled as PCM" (p 73 of Onkyo 805 manual)
By contrast, when one looks at the manuals for the lower-numbered Onkyos, for example the 705:
"DSD sources are converted and handled as PCM." (p. 68 of Onkyo 705 manual)
The implication is that DSD signals in the DSD Direct mode (and Pure, which is Direct but with some circuits turned off) don't undergo a PCM conversion on the 805 and up. As I said above, I prefer the PCM conversion in most cases because of my speaker/room combo.
-Rob
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robstl said:
I'm fairly certain that the 805 and higher do _not_ convert DSD to PCM in Direct/Pure modes. Of course, it's not always easy to get straight answers on this sort of thing from the manuals. The 805 manual says:
"In listening modes other than DSD Direct, DSD sources are converted and handled as PCM" (p 73 of Onkyo 805 manual)
By contrast, when one looks at the manuals for the lower-numbered Onkyos, for example the 705:
"DSD sources are converted and handled as PCM." (p. 68 of Onkyo 705 manual)
The implication is that DSD signals in the DSD Direct mode (and Pure, which is Direct but with some circuits turned off) don't undergo a PCM conversion on the 805 and up. As I said above, I prefer the PCM conversion in most cases because of my speaker/room combo.
-Rob
Goign from the manual, it seems pretty straightforward. However, from the little knowledge I have gained from here (could be a dangerous thing - a LITTLE knowledge)you cannot have machiens that convert from Digital to Analogue EITHER using PCM OR using Sigma-Delta. Especially not at a receiver at teh Onkyo 805 price point.
However, I am not sure hwo the Onkyo works. I DO knwo it only has one set of DACs, i.e. the Burr Brown ones specified. So I guess we need to look at what they are capable of. I have seen them listed in the Onkyo spec sheet of a certain UK supplier who's name escapes me, but it clearly states "Burr Brown...PCM...DACs".
So goign back to the manual, maybe the pure/DSD mode sentence means they do not go any PCM PROCESSING, as opposed to conversion????
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