Post by Xav May 22, 2007 (1 of 13)
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Post by Sigfred May 22, 2007 (2 of 13)
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I would think that most labels will not use synthetic surround for new recordings/(re)releases for classical music, but there are exceptions as Windsurfer found out the hard way.
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Post by Xav May 23, 2007 (3 of 13)
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Sigfred said:
I would think that most labels will not use synthetic surround for new recordings/(re)releases for classical music, but there are exceptions as Windsurfer found out the hard way.
I'm sure they do really record proper m/c. It's more the use of artifical reverb I wonder about - If you just play the front 2 channels of m/c recordings and compare to the stereo layer, there can often be quite a difference in the sound of the acoustic.
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Post by pgmdir May 23, 2007 (4 of 13)
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That still doesn't mean that the reverb is artificial--- just more or less of the hall mics in the mix. In my opinion, the rear channels of many classical recordings have a bit too much "hall", which tends to muddy the image a bit. Some like it. That's what volume controls are for.
Artifical reverb can sometimes make a dry recording sound a whole bunch better. A good producer is worth his weight in gold.
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Post by Ziad June 7, 2007 (5 of 13)
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The worst offenders by far are ECM Records. They intentionally add reverb in post-production which results in more atmosphere but much less clarity and a distant sound. Result; I don't buy their product unless the artist themselves have produced it, such as 'The Carniege Hall Concert' by Keith Jarrett which is a beautiful recording, dry and immediate.
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Post by eesau June 8, 2007 (6 of 13)
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Ziad said:
The worst offenders by far are ECM Records. They intentionally add reverb in post-production which results in more atmosphere but much less clarity and a distant sound. Result; I don't buy their product unless the artist themselves have produced it, such as 'The Carniege Hall Concert' by Keith Jarrett which is a beautiful recording, dry and immediate.
What a claim ... just give us an example of this. ECM has never done this ...
Artificial reverb is used when they create multichannel recordings from
vintage stereo/mono recordings like
Billie Holiday: Lady In Satin
listen to her voice and you'll notice ...
Esa
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Post by Claude June 8, 2007 (7 of 13)
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eesau said:
What a claim ... just give us an example of this. ECM has never done this ...
Not all ECM recordings sound like this, but most of those done in Oslo (Talent Studios etc) have artificial reverb. Or do you think Jan Garbarek recorded his albums in real church acoustics?
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Post by Claude June 8, 2007 (8 of 13)
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Another SACD with artificial reverb is this one:
Sonny Rollins: Way Out West
It's not huge amounts of reverb, but comparing the SACD to the CD version (OJC and MFSL) or the 45RPM LP set shows that the original recording is much drier. SACD engineer Doug Sax has added reverb during the mastering. Steve Hoffman has confirmed this.
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Post by Ziad June 11, 2007 (9 of 13)
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eesau said:
What a claim ... just give us an example of this. ECM has never done this ...
Esa
I'm afraid not Esa.
The whole sorry story is outlined in an article called 'The ECM Story':
http://fernould.club.fr/ecmvo.html
Kongshaug incidentally has done some amazing work, i.e. Keith Jarrett's Blue Note Box; but when it comes to any type of concert hall situation he is overwhelmed - see 'The Cure' also by Jarrett in which Gary Peacock is barely audible!
The Classic discs that ECM issue are similarly lacking in detail; The Shostakovich with Kashkashian and Arvo Part's Miserere spring to mind as being quiet and muddy. Both were recorded by Peter Laenger who has engineered the two worst discs I have ever heard and the single worst sounding recording featuring Keith Jarrett; The Mozart Piano Concertos conducted by Dennis Russell Davies. Lost, completely lost in a sea of reverb. Jarrett says as much in a recent interview with Keyboard Magazine:
'The biggest joy I’ve had doing written music is playing the Mozart concerti. To have those strings just kind of make that cushion and then me playing single notes above it . . . it’s amazing, but even on the CD, it doesn’t come out. Even I can’t hear it!
http://www.keyboardmag.com/story.asp?sectioncode=29&storycode=16197
Jarrett has also outlined his position on the subject of echo and ECM in a wonderful article on high-end audio from Jazztimes magazine:
http://jazztimes.com/reviews/audio_video_files/reviewDetail.cfm?ReviewID=24
My point about the artist taking control of their output is exemplified by Jarrett's output since his return to playing after CFS; see Melody At Night With You, Whisper Not, Inside Out, up for it, the out-of-towners and Radiance. These are some of the best recordings I've ever heard (as good as a RBCD can possibly sound) and from what I've heard Eicher had very little to do with them apart from their publication.
Eicher has produced some exemplary discs in jazz such as the Arild Andersen Trio recordings with Vassilis Tsabropoulos, Marylin Crispell's Amaryllis and Bobo Stenson's Serenity recordings but there is something about that artificial cathedral echo sound applied to various other titles that inhibits the natural clarity that classical acoustic instruments have. I just can't hear what the performer is doing. That's why I don't buy ECM releases anymore. I look elsewhere for my classical fix; BIS, Hyperion, Alia Vox, Capricco and even NAXOS (they're $10.00 in Australia). Actually what ECM does well is act as detectives - finding and recording rare and obscure works, which go on to be better recorded in other hands.
Best,
Ziad.
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Post by Jay-dub June 12, 2007 (10 of 13)
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Claude said:
Another SACD with artificial reverb is this one:
Sonny Rollins: Way Out West
It's not huge amounts of reverb, but comparing the SACD to the CD version (OJC and MFSL) or the 45RPM LP set shows that the original recording is much drier. SACD engineer Doug Sax has added reverb during the mastering. Steve Hoffman has confirmed this.
This information is of interest to me -- I'm thinking of buying that disk. Could you write a review of it, detailing what ticked you off that there is added reverb, how much there is, how the SACD sounds compared to the CD's, and whether you think it was appropriate in this case to add the reverb? Please, if it isn't too much trouble?
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