Post by LC June 10, 2004 (21 of 30)
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Dan Popp said:
They are not actively developing a DSD product as far as he knows. It would mean basically re-inventing the wheel from their perspective. They have 6th-generation products out there, including resolution up to 192/24, and they are not going to be quick to roll the dice on DSD.
. . .
This is a little frustrating because a lot of studio owners like me have openly wished for a recording format that is better than the consumer/release format, for many reasons. So from my perspective, I want the DSD tools no matter how the format war shakes out.
That "just let the market choose before we do anything except up the sample rate again" attitude is frustrating, but I'm not actually sure I understand all of what you're saying. Presumably, from their perspective, 192/24 seems as much better than the consumer release format (CD) as is DSD. You obviously know much more about this than I do, but I assumed that there is no overwhelming technical argument for DSD production, as opposed to high-resolution PCM, unless you expect the end carrier, now or in the future, also to be DSD. I've heard of some producers who say they really like working with DSD, but I assumed their enthusiasm had as much to do with the fact that the material would not have to be converted to any other format in order for it to be distributed and played back. I guess what I'm saying is that while I have some idea of why DSD is better than PCM in playback, I don't understand why DSD is better in production (apart from the ability to keep it pure all the way down the line to a superior playback format). Of course, understanding the answer to that may involve getting a computer engineering degree.
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Post by Dan Popp June 10, 2004 (22 of 30)
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LC said:
...I assumed that there is no overwhelming technical argument for DSD pruduction, as opposed to high-resolution PCM, unless you expect the end carrier, now or in the future, also to be DSD.
...while I have some idea of why DSD is better than PCM in playback, I don't understand why DSD is better in production (apart from the ability to keep it pure all the way down the line to a superior playback format).
LC,
You have a very good question there which exposes some presumptions or preferences on my part that I should have elucidated. I think that's the first and last time I will use the word, "elucidated," by the way.
The considerations are:
1) Does DSD actually sound better than hi-rez PCM in their current states of the art?
2) Does DSD retain its level of quality better as it goes through the typical manipulation of a pop/rock/etc. release?
3) Does Dan have some other reason for preferring DSD?
I certainly don't know the answer to Q1, although the very limited hi-rez PCM exposure I've had was not as impressive as my SACD listening.
No one knows the answer to Q2 until we get the tools...
But the answer to Q3 is, "yes." I have outlined this somewhere else on this forum, but briefly: I think the PCM wars have got to stop. More bits and higher sampling rates have taken us far enough down the road of diminishing returns, and there is no end in sight, either of equipment obsolesence, or of bank payments for the latest-and-greatest.
DSD gives the people making the recordings the ability to get off the PCM bus and work with a really good, musically satisfying format for a long time, and actually not go bankrupt doing it. It is such a more elegant and well-thought-out solution in terms of its compatibility with all the other current formats. There literally is no downside except for the fact that the recording/editing gear just isn't "there"... yet.
Thanks for the exchange, LC.
PS. In case you're interested, these thoughts are more fully developed in my posts on the thread, "Discussion : full editing and mastering capabilitys in DSD, curse or blessing ?" and, to a lesser extent, "Sampling Frequency vs. Perception (PCM)"
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Post by LC June 12, 2004 (23 of 30)
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Dan Popp said:
LC,
You have a very good question there which exposes some presumptions or preferences on my part that I should have elucidated. I think that's the first and last time I will use the word, "elucidated," by the way.
Ha! Well, as you'll note from my profile, I'm a philosopher, so I specialize in good questions, and I endorse (correct) use of the word "elucidate."
Lyle
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Post by azure June 15, 2004 (24 of 30)
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As for the Pro Tools SACD plugin, I'm not sure what you mean. There is some affordable software out there that will convert PT sessions into DVD-As (argh!) and someone can export PT files into a Sadie system and make an SACD... but PCM and SACD are different animals, and there is no DSD recording or playback that can be done on Pro Tools.
Hi Dan
I was refering to an article on the "highfidelityreview.com" web-site:
"Philips Announces ProTools DSD Plug-In & SACD Creation Tools
Philips has announced the availability of a new Plug-In for the popular ProTools Digital Audio Workstation that will enable ProTools users to create multichannel DSD audio files on ProTools workstations and systems. In addition to the new DSD ProTools plug-in, Philips is also offering a standalone software program called SA-CD Creator and an SA-CD Creator Pack which includes both products."
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=11278979
Hopefully this product will expand the uptake of DSD and SACD in the recording industry.
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Post by soundboy June 16, 2004 (25 of 30)
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Just return from Hong Kong, where SACD seems to be making significant inroads into the mass market. Prices are about on-par with those in the US, however, the selection is much greater. Hong Kong Sony is doing a great job of offering its DSD-mastering facilities available for other labels. Hong Kong Universal just released its second multi-channel hybrid single-inventory new SACD title and every music store I went to has titles in SACD.
While HK may be a relatively tiny market, its music companies have released a disproportionately high number of SACD releases. There are still a good number of titles that I haven't had the chance to upload into the database here.
I wonder what the Universal/Philips/Sony SACD seminar in HK this week is about?
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Post by zeus June 16, 2004 (26 of 30)
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soundboy said:
I wonder what the Universal/Philips/Sony SACD seminar in HK this week is about?
I'll tell you when I get back.
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Post by azure June 16, 2004 (27 of 30)
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Steve,
I bet the introduction of DualDisc will be brought up
One wonders if the majors will release 3 formats in future..
DualDisc -PCM
SA-CD- DSD
Mp3 -downloadable thru the internet...
As for Warner, if the material has been recorded and mixed in DSD will they also offer a SA-CD version?
Looking forward to your next posting
enjoy Hong Kong
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Post by Dan Popp June 17, 2004 (28 of 30)
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azure said:
Hi Dan
I was refering to an article on the "highfidelityreview.com" web-site:
Hopefully this product will expand the uptake of DSD and SACD in the recording industry.
azure,
Thanks. To quote the article: "At this time, the plug-in is only available for systems running on the Windows platform." Most Pro Tools systems are run on Macs. Running PT on Windows requires a lot more patience and keystrokes than most people will put up with.
As I wrote, there are already programs (I think Minnetonka makes one) that do this cheaper and probably better. I shudder to remember my early experience with "Masterlist CD," a tweaky, clunky, expensive digi-designed program to do what Toast does almost automatically.
I'm not as hopeful as you that this will change anything in the industry. Certainly it can't do anything about the "uptake" of DSD because the source files are still PCM.
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Post by Galley August 2, 2004 (29 of 30)
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LC said:
Sony has puzzled me all along with its insistence on releasing single-layer discs. As great as it is that labels such as Harmonia Mundi and Channel Classics seem to be fairly devoted to the format, it would be depressing if Sony (of all companies!) started losing interest.
Sony has really "screwed the pooch". They absolutely ruled in the 70s and 80s. Boston, Cheap Trick, Blue Öyster Cult, Journey, Toto, The Rolling Stones, etc. How many of those huge-selling albums has Sony released on SACD? Just a handful.
And when the heck are they gonna start using Super Jewel Boxes?
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Post by azure August 10, 2004 (30 of 30)
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I thought the hold up in Sony SACD releases in the US has been on legal grounds, does anyone know if these issues have been resolved?
The other factor is what effect is Dualdisc going to have....
Although apparently Dualdisc is having its own legal patent problems
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/09/dualdisc_rollout_threat/
Needless to say, i found in the past, I have had a greater number of independent classical and jazz titles in my Lp and CD collection than material offered by the majors.
With Universal and Sony releasing so much [increasing numbers] of SACD titles in Europe and Japan... I can not see any decline in the format regardless what TAS reports.
If I had to predict, the consumer will have the choice of hybrids and/or Dualdisc and MP3 through the net, that is if Dualdisc gets off the ground.
Intellectual property and patents are a hot issues atm especially here in oz!
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