Post by pgmdir May 23, 2007 (11 of 18)
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Purists don't like it, but it works for me: Set the player for NO sub, and LARGE speakers. Conect the sub to the front speaker outputs. That's why they make high level inputs on subs. On HT the effect seems more cohesive to me anyway. Adjust your crossover and level control on the sub very carefully to simply add the bottom. Bass management has always been an issue for SACD. This takes care of it and doesn't hurt HT.
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Post by Sigfred May 23, 2007 (12 of 18)
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Claude said:
Sorry, I know little about 5.1 setups, but when small front speakers are being used, can't the subwoofer be configured to support the speakers in the bass range, even with a stereo signal? The center and surround speakers will of course be silent.
The bass management in the player works for both stereo and MCH SACD, assuming that you are using the analoge outputs for SACD playback. When playing SACD - stereo or not - I must select MCH analogue input in the receiver or the bass is lost.
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Post by Sigfred May 23, 2007 (13 of 18)
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rosenkavalier817 said:
My main problem is with stereo SACDs. It seems the bass is severly lacking as I am getting absolutely nothing out of the sub. I only have the option for "Large" or "Small" speakers on both my Oppo player and receiver.
Do you have good bass when playing MCH SACD? If so, make sure that on your receiver you have selected MCH analoge inputs even when playing stereo SACD, and that the player is configured to always output 5.1 with bass management on the analoge outputs. DTS/Dolby signals can still be output digitally to the receiver.
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Sigfred said:
Do you have good bass when playing MCH SACD? If so, make sure that on your receiver you have selected MCH analoge inputs even when playing stereo SACD, and that the player is configured to always output 5.1 with bass management on the analoge outputs. DTS/Dolby signals can still be output digitally to the receiver.
I do have good bass from the Sub when playing MCH SACDs. I imagine that the bass response on my Front speakers isn't that impressive, which is why the Stereo SACD bass is unimpressive. I always use the MCH input for both stero and MCH SACDs.
Thanks!
edit: I fixed the problem by changing the settings on the Oppo itself. I set all my speakers to small with a sub and that kicked the sub in. I did have to turn the sub up a bit relative to things like movies and TV, but that's to be expected.
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Post by Sigfred May 23, 2007 (15 of 18)
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rosenkavalier817 said:
...
edit: I fixed the problem by changing the settings on the Oppo itself. I set all my speakers to small with a sub and that kicked the sub in. I did have to turn the sub up a bit relative to things like movies and TV, but that's to be expected.
Good that it worked out for you.
Do adjust the level on the sub itself when changing from SACD (analog output) to DVD (digital output)? That can be avoided by setting the crossover in the receiver to be the same as the one used in the player. You may also have to adjust (on the receiver) the subwoofer (LFE) channel sensitivity on the analog input: Dolby Digital calls for 10 dB gain in the playback system for LFE channel while SACD does not. Some player/receiver combos does not automatically adjust for this. You find more info about this here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147
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Post by joema May 28, 2007 (16 of 18)
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This is unfortunately a widespread problem with both SACD and DVD-A multichannel music.
It stems from a lack of standardization between content producers (of high-res multi-ch material), amplifier and player manufacturers. It is exacerbated by the mandated analog-only output for high resolution material.
The good news: you can often adjust your player and amp to get adequate bass output when playing high-res multichannel music.
The bad news: it may require extreme manipulation of player/amp output trim levels, and possibly an SACD-specific pink noise calibration disc. In theory the required adjustments may hurt the music "noise floor" which was one reason for going high-res in the 1st place. Also it requires separate and redundant speaker level calibrations for both DD 5.1 material (say, movies) vs SACD/DVD-A multi-channel material. This is only possible if your amplifier has discrete trim controls for multi-channel analog inputs, separate from other sources.
The problem is best understood by comparing to Dolby Digital 5.1. With DD 5.1, the LFE (low frequency effects) track is recorded at -10db vs the main tracks. The DD 5.1 spec states the playback chain or decoder must compensate by boosting +10db. All content producers, player and amp mfgs abide by this. It's made easier by the all-digital format and the onboard Dolby decoder (inside the amp itself).
By contrast, with multi-ch SACD/DVD-A, the bass (aka subwoofer) track is recorded at (apparently) -10db or -15db down. Player output is analog only (excepting some very new HDMI revisions). Thus the decoder is outboard of the amp, in the player. The amp has no idea what type of multi-channel source you connected to it -- it's just a dumb analog amp. It can't use digital processing to set subwoofer crossover, speaker size, etc. The player must do all that.
The amp must *manually* compensate for low SWFR input levels by boosting the bass channel this amount. Not all amps have that much gain -- the Yamaha RX-V1400 is limited to +10db for SWFR in.
You can't just turn up the subwoofer volume knob, as that increases sub output for ALL sources, not just SACD.
For player/amp combinations with insufficient amp SWFR gain adjustment, the solution is increase the player SWFR output trim. This plus the amp SWFR gain adjustment are usually sufficient. This assumes the amp as a DISCRETE SWFR gain control, separate for 6-channel analog in or HDMI in.
Some players don't allow this -- e.g, many are attenuate only for SWFR out, no boost available. In that case the solution is attenuate the player main channels, say -5 or -10db, leave SWFR output at 0db. Then turn up amp master volume to compensate. This in effect provides more SWFR-specific boost.
Also you cannot reliably use the pink noise tones generated by the player or amplifier, nor pink tones from a regular DVD or CD. The recording/playback level is dependent on specific signal path. E.g, the player may produce less SWFR output when playing an actual SACD than when emitting built-in pink noise calibration tones.
The only proper way is using a multi-channel SACD pink noise calibration disc. The one I use is on track 8 of this SACD: http://www.amazon.com/Multichannel-Reference-SACD-Various-Artists/dp/B00005RTL7/ref=sr_1_1/103-3119257-2396603?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1180388025&sr=8-1
Using this (or similar) disc, the procedure is similar to using other pink noise sources: play each channel use a sound meter (such as Radio Shack), and set each channel to about 75db. In theory the subwoofer should be about 80db to compensate for lower meter sensitivity at that frequency.
There is a huge discussion about this issue on this forum. A lot of it is off-topic or specific to HDMI, but it covers the main issue:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147&page=1&pp=30
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joema said:
The only proper way is using a multi-channel SACD pink noise calibration disc. The one I use is on track 8 of this SACD: ...
Here it is:
DMP Multichannel Reference
You may also be interested in this disc, though it will be hard to get by:
SACD Surround Sound Reference Disc
Part III, 'Advanced System Setup' (tracks 63-93) contains pink noise for each individual channel, phase tests between left/right & front/rear, phantom imaging, audible LFE subwoofer calibration, etc.
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Post by Sigfred May 29, 2007 (18 of 18)
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The Seventh Taylor said:
You may also be interested in this disc, though it will be hard to get by:
SACD Surround Sound Reference Disc
Part III, 'Advanced System Setup' (tracks 63-93) contains pink noise for each individual channel, phase tests between left/right & front/rear, phantom imaging, audible LFE subwoofer calibration, etc.
I think these are the tracks 18-48 of Stay in Tune with PentaTone that should be easier to obtain. The liner notes credits Phillips Intellectual Property & Standards.
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