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I too noticed a white noise every time the clarinet entered which dissipated after a few seconds. I found it so annoying I didn't even listen to the whole disc. It was very high frequency. I am quite dissapointed. Didn't the engineers notice this problem?
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Post by zeus February 23, 2004 (2 of 20)
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Cellophile said:
I too noticed a white noise every time the clarinet entered which dissipated after a few seconds. I found it so annoying I didn't even listen to the whole disc. It was very high frequency. I am quite dissapointed. Didn't the engineers notice this problem?
I don't yet have this disc so can't comment. What's your player and amp?
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Post by nucaleena February 23, 2004 (3 of 20)
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Cellophile said:
I too noticed a white noise every time the clarinet entered which dissipated after a few seconds. I found it so annoying I didn't even listen to the whole disc. It was very high frequency. I am quite dissapointed. Didn't the engineers notice this problem?
Hi cellophile, glad it's not just me and my ears. It did bother me but i kept listening and you get used to it after a while. Still, shouldn't have to. Not great is it? Stick with the Thea King, if you have it, or get the Pentatone RQR of the Quintet. Cheers, nucaleena.
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Post by zeus February 23, 2004 (4 of 20)
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nucaleena said:
Hi cellophile, glad it's not just me and my ears. It did bother me but i kept listening and you get used to it after a while. Still, shouldn't have to. Not great is it?
I'm confused here. Are you talking about just breathing/close miking or some sort of recording/mastering defect?
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Post by nucaleena February 24, 2004 (5 of 20)
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zeus said:
I'm confused here. Are you talking about just breathing/close miking or some sort of recording/mastering defect?
stephen, not sure but i referred to it in my review as "a bit of distortion (metallic sounding and otherwise) around the clarinet, particularly on re-entries". Cellophile refers to it as white noise.
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Post by zeus March 30, 2004 (6 of 20)
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Since a number of people have been somewhat critical in their reviews/comments on the disc, especially regarding what they perceive as some sort of "white noise" or "hissing" related to the instrument itself, I passed this onto BIS for response. Here it is in full:
Hi Stephen,
First of all it is of course nice if people react at all to our records. As a record producer and Tonmeister (recording engineer) one likes the positive ones rather more than some moaning but on the other hand I take every critic seriously and try to improve things if necessary.
Well, in this case the critic(s) are right in their observation but very wrong with their conclusion!!!
I try to be a bit more precise:
1. "white noise" is a purely technical term for a mixture of all audible frequencies with the same amount of "power". (I will not go into details for other exotic things like pink noise etc. school has been quite a while ago...)
Anyway, this means that this type of noise can hardly occur in an actual acoustic recording situation if the technic involved is "clean"! (There are records though with lots of nice storms in the background but easily detected from real white noise while shifting slightly in pitch in every edit...)
So in this case I can assure you 100% that there is no technical "noise" whatsoever on this record-that means there is no reason for the persons in question to change their current equipment!!!
That leads us to the phenomen what these people actually observe. They are simply listening to a clarinet! I will not go so far to say that those people have no experience with that instrument but anybody who has been ever close to a clarinet player (and that doesn't mean on kissing distance) while playing would have recognized the "hissing noise" as part of the nature of the instrument.
It is simply the amount of air which escapes between blade and lips of the player which is producing the observed "disturbance".
Now one can of course discuss how much of that should be actually audible on a recording and how much can that be influenced by the micing, the player, the reed, the instrument, the room etc.
With Martin Fröst being an extremely expressive player this little extra air is almost inevitable for his style of playing.
(The remark of one of the critics that she or he observed the same "effect" on another record with a different artist points in that direction).
Being capable of such a high resolution as SACD is -it of course shows even more all the details of any acoustic happening whether it is page turning, chair cracking or extra "noises" from instruments.
I wonder sometimes having read thousands of critics in my life why do some people get happy if they can hear shifts on a guitar so loud as possible and then give their exellent HIFI-System the credit for it!?
At last the micing, to be fair the CD is not miced in a so called puristic way (that might be one reason why one critic preferred the Pentatone recording) but here we are on very slippery ground and it will fill books to even open that discussion. So simply take it or leave it but please don't blame the engineers or producers first that they might not have ears to detect technical faults! It feels quite insulting for the whole BIS company especially because our sonic reputation is something we are working hard for. And just to clarify the procedure: Every record has been listened multiple times by at least 3 independent Tonmeisters throughout the whole recording process. Playback beeing done on headphones (Stax, Sennheiser) and speakers (B&W Nautilus, Quad etc.).
A last suggestion for the people in question, please go to a nice clarinet recital and listen to a rehearsal if the artist allows. Then go around the player while she or he is playing and listen from all possible distances and heights to the playing-that is by the way the method how we determine placement of the so called closemics (which are in fact sometimes not close at all!!!). You will be in for a surprise!
For a continued happy listening my best regards,
Ingo Petry
recording producer, Tonmeister
BIS records
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Post by nickc March 30, 2004 (7 of 20)
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dear ingo
thank you very much for your reply it has answered all my questions! i did notice the same hissing noise on the opus 3 clarinet sacd so i can understand when you say it is the higher resolution recordings that actually allow us to hear more of the clarinet. don't worry in my opinion bis, hyperion and channel classics make the best soundind cd/sacds so keep up the good work!
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nickc said:
dear ingo
thank you very much for your reply it has answered all my questions! i did notice the same hissing noise on the opus 3 clarinet sacd so i can understand when you say it is the higher resolution recordings that actually allow us to hear more of the clarinet. don't worry in my opinion bis, hyperion and channel classics make the best soundind cd/sacds so keep up the good work!
dear nick and ingo, i found that the difference between the Opus3 disc and the BIS was that in the former, the noises clearly emanated from soloist and woodwind instrument and sounded quite natural to me, whereas in the BIS disc they sounded (to me anyway) somewhat metallic and artificial, rather than a natural corollary of hi-rez clarinet sound (as in the Opus3). I'd be v. interested in your reactions. Cheers.
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Post by Castor April 19, 2004 (9 of 20)
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nucaleena said:
dear nick and ingo, i found that the difference between the Opus3 disc and the BIS was that in the former, the noises clearly emanated from soloist and woodwind instrument and sounded quite natural to me, whereas in the BIS disc they sounded (to me anyway) somewhat metallic and artificial, rather than a natural corollary of hi-rez clarinet sound (as in the Opus3). I'd be v. interested in your reactions. Cheers.
I recently attended a concert in the BBC Studio7 Manchester in which Martin Fröst gave a marvellous performance of the Copland Clarinet Concerto. I was sitting on the second row, probably no more than 15 ft. from Mr Fröst, and was unaware of any hissing noises from his clarinet. This does make me somewhat suspicious of the reply from Ingo Petry of BIS that this type of noise is quite normal. I don’t have the SACD in question but can’t believe that the closeness of the miking is not the main culprit here.
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Post by pann April 19, 2004 (10 of 20)
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Castor said:
I recently attended a concert in the BBC Studio7 Manchester in which Martin Fröst gave a marvellous performance of the Copland Clarinet Concerto. I was sitting on the second row, probably no more than 15 ft. from Mr Fröst, and was unaware of any hissing noises from his clarinet. This does make me somewhat suspicious of the reply from Ingo Petry of BIS that this type of noise is quite normal. I don’t have the SACD in question but can’t believe that the closeness of the miking is not the main culprit here.
I agree with Castor.
I think the culprit is Ingo or his crew put the mic unrealistcally too close. He also tried to blame SACD media. The tool is there for the person to put it in good use or in bad use. In this case, it failed. His explanation is not convincing at all.
Sometimes back, there is one forumer who commented on an organ music sacd, he/she said heard all the peddle and mechanical noises. and was annoyed.
Do I have to hear all those noises?
Why so many engineers(?) put the mic soooo close? Do they know how to listen to classical music? Do they know the sound produced from each instrument needs air (therefore distance) to massage in order to get the distinctive "beautiful" sound of an instruemnt. That's why classical listeners like to sit in "Row 20 Center" so to speaker, for example.
I see in rock music, the mic is almost touch the lips of the performer. No,no,no. Not on classical music. What do you hear, if you put your ear so close to a double bass?
I played violin (in my younger years). You can't hardly tell a big difference say a Stradivarius from an ordinary violin up close.
Ingo, it's not normal. Sorry. Nice try though.
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