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henk said:
So what do you do to get the best quality out of your sacd:S ?
I will repeat the advice I have often given, although I use a separate Mch preamp/processor, not an AVR.
First, most AVRs via their analog inputs are not usually that good, and will not do justice to pure DSD. So, I do not think it makes sense to buy a more expensive player with good quality analog output, then feed it through an AVR. In my experience, it takes a really good and expensive setup for pure DSD to achieve good sonics.
You can get pure DSD into an AVR via HDMI, provided the AVR supports it, and an inexpensive player, such as an Oppo 103, will likely provide better sound that way than via the analog inputs.
My prepro does support DSD bitstreaming, and for Mch, it sounds distinctly second best via pure DSD compared to having the processor convert to PCM. That also allows you to use important DSP functions such as speaker distance correction, bass management and Room EQ. Those functions are incompatible with and NOT usable with pure DSD. That means, for example, that your speakers must be identical and equidistant from the prime listening position to do pure DSD in Mch. Nor could you properly use a subwoofer via bass management in pure DSD.
There is no question in my mind that the contribution of DSP Room EQ is far greater in most AVR- based systems than is pure DSD. That is how I listen, and that way my sound is easily the best I have had after many decades of using some very fine, very high end systems. Pure DSD in my system pales by comparison.
Pioneer's DSP Room EQ is second rate in many ways. Also, Pioneer is in deep financial trouble, which might endanger future support. Whatever the advantages of their proprietary, low jitter DSD transmission might be, they are small compared to the effects of a good Room EQ system, which Pioneer unfortunately lacks.
I only recommend two commonly available EQ systems: Audyssey XT/32 or Anthem ARC. ARC is available only on Anthem AVR's and prepros. Audyssey is available on a number of AVRs and prepros, including Denon, Marantz, Onkyo Integra and NAD. In all these makes, the best Audyssey version, which is XT/32, appears in their mid to top of the line AVRs, which also usually support pure DSD. The Anthem units do not support DSD input. Zeus selected and, AFAIK, is quite happy with a Denin AVR.
So, for an AVR, I would strongly recommend Denon, Marantz, Onkyo or Integra, coupled with a player that bit streams DSD via HDMI. That will allow you to listen for yourself to the contribution of Room EQ and of pure DSD. As long as you have calibrated the EQ properly according to the Audyssey Setup Guide at avsforum, I believe strongly that you will come to the conclusion that the EQ and other DSP features are much preferred over pure DSD. As I said, pure DSD requires expensive gear and difficult room acoustic treatments to come into its own.
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Post by henk October 3, 2013 (22 of 35)
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Wow, OK that just shows me how much i know (not much in this case) I did think about the Pioneer
but having a pioneer bluray shouldnt be a reason for me to purchase one.I always liked harman kardon
and NAD so if you think NAD would be a good choice for me i would quiet happy buying a NAD
have been looking at the T777 but this thing retails for $3000 in Australia , so i may have to shop arround.
Thank you very much for your insight i really appreciate it.Cheers from Down Under
Henk
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Post by Goodwood October 4, 2013 (23 of 35)
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Fitzcaraldo215 said:
I will repeat the advice I have often given, although I use a separate Mch preamp/processor, not an AVR.
First, most AVRs via their analog inputs are not usually that good, and will not do justice to pure DSD. So, I do not think it makes sense to buy a more expensive player with good quality analog output, then feed it through an AVR. In my experience, it takes a really good and expensive setup for pure DSD to achieve good sonics.
You can get pure DSD into an AVR via HDMI, provided the AVR supports it, and an inexpensive player, such as an Oppo 103, will likely provide better sound that way than via the analog inputs.
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Pioneer's DSP Room EQ is second rate in many ways. Also, Pioneer is in deep financial trouble, which might endanger future support. Whatever the advantages of their proprietary, low jitter DSD transmission might be, they are small compared to the effects of a good Room EQ system, which Pioneer unfortunately lacks.
etc etc.
You may well be right but setting my SC-LX86 AVR set to Pure Direct has blown my socks off as well as anyone else who has heard my system - and yes the player is an LX55. I am very happy with the results and the PQLS jitter control makes quite an improvement.
The receiver cost me a mere £925 and the blu ray is an almost throw away £250. Doing better at these prices would, I think, be quite hard.
Anyway I am not suggesting anyone should buy what I buy. I am merely answering the OP's question. I certainly didn't expect a review of the manufacturers financial performance.
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henk said:
Wow, OK that just shows me how much i know (not much in this case) I did think about the Pioneer
but having a pioneer bluray shouldnt be a reason for me to purchase one.I always liked harman kardon
and NAD so if you think NAD would be a good choice for me i would quiet happy buying a NAD
have been looking at the T777 but this thing retails for $3000 in Australia , so i may have to shop arround.
Thank you very much for your insight i really appreciate it.Cheers from Down Under
Henk
NAD is a decent brand, but it would not be a top choice for me among AVRs. Compared to the aforementioned Denon, Marantz, Onkyo or Integra offerings, NAD are pricey, lower in power and features, and their top model only provides Audyssey MultEQ XT, whereas the other brands provide the superior MultEQ XT/32 from about the middle of their lines on up. I could be wrong, because there are no specs on their site, a curious omission, but I also do not think they support bitstreamed DSD, if that is important to you.
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Post by henk October 5, 2013 (25 of 35)
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Fitzcaraldo215 said:
NAD is a decent brand, but it would not be a top choice for me among AVRs. Compared to the aforementioned Denon, Marantz, Onkyo or Integra offerings, NAD are pricey, lower in power and features, and their top model only provides Audyssey MultEQ XT, whereas the other brands provide the superior MultEQ XT/32 from about the middle of their lines on up. I could be wrong, because there are no specs on their site, a curious omission, but I also do not think they support bitstreamed DSD, if that is important to you.
The thing with the NAD for me is what i remember of NAD and also HK they have a nice warm sound
so my very first Choice was HK AVR3700 but i dont think the HK do anything in regards to DSD,thats
why i was happy when you mentioned NAD,as you can see this is very confusing for me, am almost
at a point where i just buy the AMP and then worry about the sacd as the failsafe with the NAD is that
it has 5.1 analog in.Thanks for all your help got a lot of thinking to do.Cheers
Henk
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henk said:
The thing with the NAD for me is what i remember of NAD and also HK they have a nice warm sound
so my very first Choice was HK AVR3700 but i dont think the HK do anything in regards to DSD,thats
why i was happy when you mentioned NAD,as you can see this is very confusing for me, am almost
at a point where i just buy the AMP and then worry about the sacd as the failsafe with the NAD is that
it has 5.1 analog in.Thanks for all your help got a lot of thinking to do.Cheers
Henk
It is your money and therefore, of course, your choice. For me today in AVRs, I would want to take a very close look at the Denon X4000 or its twice as expensive 4520 for SACD playback. Both have Audyssey XT/32 and Denon Link to a compatible Denon 3313 player, which reduces jitter vs. straight HDMI. I would never buy anything on past reputation alone, and I would only consider that if all else were equal. HK is pretty far down the list of popular or sought after AVRs these days. I do not see anyone credible recommending them. Analog, as I said, into an AVR would be sub optimal in my view. AVRs are designed to sound best via their digital inputs, and analog input is more or less an afterthought aimed manly at the dwindling numbers of legacy players that lack HDMI.
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Post by henk October 7, 2013 (27 of 35)
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Fitzcaraldo215 said:
It is your money and therefore, of course, your choice. For me today in AVRs, I would want to take a very close look at the Denon X4000 or its twice as expensive 4520 for SACD playback. Both have Audyssey XT/32 and Denon Link to a compatible Denon 3313 player, which reduces jitter vs. straight HDMI. I would never buy anything on past reputation alone, and I would only consider that if all else were equal. HK is pretty far down the list of popular or sought after AVRs these days. I do not see anyone credible recommending them. Analog, as I said, into an AVR would be sub optimal in my view. AVRs are designed to sound best via their digital inputs, and analog input is more or less an afterthought aimed manly at the dwindling numbers of legacy players that lack HDMI.
Hi i know what you are saying but i think for me this is the better choice, if i have to spend another $1000
or so to buy a suitable sacd player to go with the denon that would probably blow my budget even more,
I guess if i could walk into a shop where i could find all the AVRr's are lined up and connected and actualy
have a play and a listen things would be different so i am going by past experiences , what i read and
what people tell me to form my decission.Thank you very much
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Post by henk October 7, 2013 (28 of 35)
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Just wanted to say thanks for all your help , as i have just purchased the T777 for $2300 i could not refuse.
So thanks again to all of you guys, would have liked to invite you guys over for an Aussie BBQ but i think it
may be a bit too far to travel for some.I will keep you posted of the results i get with my sacd's.Cheers
Henk
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Post by Iain October 8, 2013 (29 of 35)
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henk said:
Just wanted to say thanks for all your help , as i have just purchased the T777 for $2300 i could not refuse.
So thanks again to all of you guys, would have liked to invite you guys over for an Aussie BBQ but i think it
may be a bit too far to travel for some.I will keep you posted of the results i get with my sacd's.Cheers
Henk
I wish you luck with your new kit. Remember however, that it's a long-term purchase decision and that you may not be as pleased with it in a year as you are now.
I've ALWAYS found purchasing something on price alone to be unwise. If I can't currently afford an item, I postpone that purchase until I have the means to do so.
My 2p. : )
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Iain said:
I've ALWAYS found purchasing something on price alone to be unwise. If I can't currently afford an item, I postpone that purchase until I have the means to do so.
Meh. I purchased my Yamaha as a Black Friday deal for a price I couldn't refuse, even though I wasn't really planning on it purchasing a new AVR or spending that kind of money on a whim. I haven't regretted it once.
I personally like the sound of pure direct...it's warmer or whatever. But I definitely like having the choice between the room-adjustment settings (even though I understand YPAO isn't as good as Audyssey it sounds fine to me) and going pure DSD with the flick of a switch.
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