Post by abind September 20, 2013 (11 of 52)
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I vote for Vandersteen speakers as well. Plus, they have a nice upgrade path; you can add a Vandersteen sub, and then a second sub to your front speakers. If you decide to go to a surround system, you can get a pair of Vandersteen VSM-1 speakers and a center channel. They have great resale value.
I have owned various Vandersteen speakers for many years, and haven't heard anything I like better ( though there are many other speakers I could probably live with happily). I find them to be natural and musical; some others hear dull and boring, so try to listen first if you can.
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stvnharr said:
Are you looking new or used?
You get better value in the used market.
Or you can go to a direct selling speaker maker, like Selah Audio, www.selahaudio.com for the best value of all. I highly recommend anything designed/made by Rick Craig.
I suppose I'm a little wary of purchasing used speakers, especially without having a prior chance to hear the speaker model. Shipping used towers from, say, Europe to the states seems like a sketchy and expensive proposition. I've had a chance to bring home a couple models from a dealer for a weekend to try out; unfortunately there are not many hi-end audio dealers in my area, and probably even fewer that will be so accommodating.
Who knows, maybe I'll decide to be adventurous and buy the pair of Vandersteen 5As on eBay for a price that seems too good to be true (or else you audiophiles who know something about them can get them first!).
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ClassicalDJ said:
but here's a chance for all you stereo disciples to convince me that there is a pair of speakers out there in the $2500 range that will by themselves blow my socks off, mainly with classical orchestral music. Feel free add what related equipment you would and wouldn't recommend.
Thanks!
If classical music is your thing, then nothing exceeds Mch in most closely approaching the sound of a live concert, assuming that is the sound that you want. Having heard many speakers up to $200k myself in elaboarate and exensive stereo systems, I am beyond convinced that many Mch systems costing far less can do a far better job of reproducing the live event. Mch simply brings more information from the live event into your listening room.
The problem with asking stereo afficianadios to recommend something is that nearly all of them have never heard a properly set up Mch system. So, no doubt they will have many good ideas. But, with all of the superb Mch SACDs out there, Mch even on a lesser set of speakers can sound more like a live concert.
Obviously, more costly speakers possess more refinement, such as a potentially more extended frequency response, greater dynamic range, sometimes smoother response or lower distortion. But, the cost can escalate rapidly and with sharply diminishing returns to get something significantly better.
One thing that drives speaker costs up so much is achieving more extended bass with lower distortion. Bigger enclosures and drivers can cost a whole lot more. But, a subwoofer utilizing bass management in a digital prepro or AVR is often a better and less expensive solution to this than bigger speakers.
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Post by stvnharr September 20, 2013 (14 of 52)
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ClassicalDJ said:
I suppose I'm a little wary of purchasing used speakers, especially without having a prior chance to hear the speaker model. Shipping used towers from, say, Europe to the states seems like a sketchy and expensive proposition. I've had a chance to bring home a couple models from a dealer for a weekend to try out; unfortunately there are not many hi-end audio dealers in my area, and probably even fewer that will be so accommodating.
Who knows, maybe I'll decide to be adventurous and buy the pair of Vandersteen 5As on eBay for a price that seems too good to be true (or else you audiophiles who know something about them can get them first!).
It always helps to be able to listen before you buy. With fewer and fewer dealers these days, it does make it more difficult. Most any dealer will let you take anything home for the weekend with a credit card on hold, as this practise helps to make a sale.
Buying used means you have to know what you are buying. Some times you can find something fairly local, or within a days drive. Audiogon is still the best marketplace for this, not ebay.
Buying from other people's recommendations, even my own recommendation, is not really the best. People's preferences are variable, to say the least. Though getting recommendations gives you information with which you can search and learn.
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ClassicalDJ said:
It seems you are not an advocate of floorstanding speakers. Do you recommend supplementing a Genelec (or similar monitor) speaker with a sub or do you think the bass and soundstage is satisfactory for large orchestral music?
I am and have a really big pair of those myself. But if I were to start on a smaller budget, I would go for a small but very neutral, very well-controlled (in terms of their reflection pattern/directionality), and very well-imaging active monitors, and then supplement them later when budget allows with a well-matching sub (Genelec makes some of the very best and certainly the most impressive ones). You have no problems reproducing a big orchestral sound with a good combo along those lines, and stand, moreover, a good chance of getting better pinpoint imaging. What you might compromise more obviously, however, is dynamics; but that is a question of some degrees only and a good sub really compensates. With it you also get mighty bass and LF extension that not even the best floorstanders alone can match. Plus a sense of added three-dimensionality to the sound, which I really like.
Also helps a lot with room issues (reflections and space limitations) if the units have a good, strong directivity. The imaging is improved really very much and the placement becomes acoustically a lot easier. And if the units are active (powered, containing their own amps as most pro units do), you don't need a lot of space for your set, either. As a rule, two small monitors and a sub are always easier placed than two big floorstanders, I would say.
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Fitzcaraldo215 said:
If classical music is your thing, then nothing exceeds Mch in most closely approaching the sound of a live concert, assuming that is the sound that you want. Having heard many speakers up to $200k myself in elaboarate and exensive stereo systems, I am beyond convinced that many Mch systems costing far less can do a far better job of reproducing the live event. Mch simply brings more information from the live event into your listening room...
One thing that drives speaker costs up so much is achieving more extended bass with lower distortion. Bigger enclosures and drivers can cost a whole lot more. But, a subwoofer utilizing bass management in a digital prepro or AVR is often a better and less expensive solution to this than bigger speakers.
There are certainly further steps I should to take to get the most out of my current multichannel system, foremost being a sub and room correction. I have been going so far with pure DSD from the Oppo 103 through Denon 4310, relying on likely imprecise measurements for equidistant speaker placement. With this setup multichannel SACDs sound better than stereo, but the difference doesn't seem quite as noticeable as I expected. I imagine the pure DSD is unnecessary and any differences with 88.2 PCM will be inaudible, certainly with my humble Klipsch speakers.
Assuming I calibrate the system with Audyssey, do you think a subwoofer (something like the Rythmik F15HP, ~$1200) or speaker (something like the RX6 x 5, ~$3000) upgrade would provide more noticeable improvement? (Of course both items are in the long term plan.)
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ClassicalDJ said:
There are certainly further steps I should to take to get the most out of my current multichannel system, foremost being a sub and room correction. I have been going so far with pure DSD from the Oppo 103 through Denon 4310, relying on likely imprecise measurements for equidistant speaker placement. With this setup multichannel SACDs sound better than stereo, but the difference doesn't seem quite as noticeable as I expected. I imagine the pure DSD is unnecessary and any differences with 88.2 PCM will be inaudible, certainly with my humble Klipsch speakers.
Assuming I calibrate the system with Audyssey, do you think a subwoofer (something like the Rythmik F15HP, ~$1200) or speaker (something like the RX6 x 5, ~$3000) upgrade would provide more noticeable improvement? (Of course both items are in the long term plan.)
I am an over the top fan of room EQ. It is quite amazing. No amount of spending at any even outrageous level on speakers can cure what your room does to the sound. Lesser speakers in a treated room or calibritated EQ situation are capable of easily vanquishing much more expensive speakers without the treatments or EQ. It is that simple. But, even better speakers if given the same treatment ir EQ will also sound even better. Removing the room from the equation invariably results in getting the best from your speaker investment.
I do not know, nor have I heard the products you mentioned. But, I remain convinced that a good sub beats larger speakers, and it is usually a better investment. As long as the speakers extend cleanly to about 60 Hz or below, and the sub is of good quality, it can potentially deliver a better bass foundation to the music than even the largest and priciest full range speakers, yet remain totally innocuous when not needed. EQ or complex and expensive treatments again bring out the bestt your sub can provide.
Some of my speakers, the ones inhereted from my stereo days, are large. If I were building my system over from scratch, I would use smaller ones all around, knowing now what a good subwoofer, with EQ, can do.
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Post by stvnharr September 20, 2013 (18 of 52)
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ClassicalDJ said:
With this setup multichannel SACDs sound better than stereo, but the difference doesn't seem quite as noticeable as I expected.
This says a lot! The difference between mch and stereo should be dramatic as the sound collapses from somewhat enveloping to all in front. It should be very noticeable. You might want to address this before spending a large amount of money on speakers.
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Post by feinstei September 23, 2013 (19 of 52)
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I've had real good luck with the BBC LS/35A speakers from such British manufacturers such as Rogers and Chartwell. I don't know if they're still available (they must have them "used" somewhere), but they sure present a fabulous stereo image on the RCA Read Seal SACD's and Living Presence SACDs.
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I know lots of people recommend small monitors with typically 5" mid/bass drivers and a sub, this is ok for a smallish room, but for bigger rooms, bigger speakers are better (bigger sound) Also a 5" driver just cannot reproduce big dynamics
realistically. It also depends what type of music you listen to.
I listen to all kind of music, from modern jazz to classical music, and organ works and I know that a small monitor with a sub cannot reproduce big organ works realistically, sure the sub will help with the bass but on organ music the most difficult area to deal with is the mids, incl the upper bass. (from 80hz to 300 hz)
So to conclude you must take into consideration your room size and the type of music you listen to.
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