Post by tag1_uk January 7, 2006 (1 of 30)
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Two semi-linked questions:
I have a four-ish year old SONY SCD-XB940 SACD player and I've got a re-occuring disc reading problem with it. It reads red book CDs and my few SACD-only dics fine, but I am finding that it reads hybrid discs with about a 60% success rate. For particular problem discs, the hybrid logo does not appear on the player's screen and at best I may be able to play the red book CD layer but normally the discs are not recognised at all. This problem is a worsening problem which I've had previously with this particular machine and which was previously repaired under warranty. The problem has now returned and seems to be getting worse. It is very upsetting. It seems to occur with discs from several labels, especially Channel Classics, Linn, Virgin, Telarc and Hyperion to name a few, even brand new discs. Has anyone experienced similar problems or have suggestions? Is it likely to be something easily fixable or is a replacement CD player in order (I am happy to replace internal components myself as I have some electronics ability, assuming I can get the spares at an economically worthwhile price)?
Because of this problem, I was thinking about buying a replacement dics player as I am passionate about (stereo) SACDs, but now I read all the doom and gloom about the format dying, I am less sure, especially if there is some particular issue with reading hybrid discs. Are the Sony players any worse in this regard? I was thinking about the Marantz SA8400, Sony SCDXA3000ES, or maybe even the new SA-15S1 in the Marantz premium range. Would these give a worthwhile improvement in sound over the SCD-XB940 if I were to keep my Sony TA-FB940R amplifier and SS-B4ED speakers in the medium term?
I then wonder if I'd just be better off spending the same amount of money on a dedicated CD only player because most reviews I've seen seem to suggest that hybrid SACD/CD players are only rather ordinary red book CD players for their particualr price point. I totally agree that SACDs give a noticeable improvement in sound, even in my modest setup, but since I have only a handful of SACD-only discs (with no new SACD-only discs being produced), I am only interested in listening in stereo, and the format appears in decline, I wonder if my best long-term investment would be to rejoin the dark side and buy a CD only disc player.
I blame Sony-Philips's incompetance, Steve Jobs (big cheese at Apple) as well as dumbed down consumers for the sorry state of the music industry as far as SACDs are concerned.
Cheers for any advice and aplogies for the ramble.
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Post by seth January 7, 2006 (2 of 30)
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tag1_uk said:
I then wonder if I'd just be better off spending the same amount of money on a dedicated CD only player because most reviews I've seen seem to suggest that hybrid SACD/CD players are only rather ordinary red book CD players for their particualr price point. I totally agree that SACDs give a noticeable improvement in sound, even in my modest setup, but since I have only a handful of SACD-only discs (with no new SACD-only discs being produced), I am only interested in listening in stereo, and the format appears in decline, I wonder if my best long-term investment would be to rejoin the dark side and buy a CD only disc player.
I blame Sony-Philips's incompetance, Steve Jobs (big cheese at Apple) as well as dumbed down consumers for the sorry state of the music industry as far as SACDs are concerned.
Cheers for any advice and aplogies for the ramble.
In that case, how about taking $125 of the total amount you'd spend on a new dedicated CD player and put it towards a budget SACD/CD player, like the Sony CE595. In theory, shouldn't the SACD layer of a disc played on a budget SACD player hold its own to the CD layer played on most CD players due to SACDs wider dynamic range, higher resolution, etc. ? (This will probably cause a flame storm)
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Post by mandel January 7, 2006 (3 of 30)
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seth said:
In that case, how about taking $125 of the total amount you'd spend on a new dedicated CD player and put it towards a budget SACD/CD player, like the Sony CE595. In theory, shouldn't the SACD layer of a disc played on a budget SACD player hold its own to the CD layer played on most CD players due to SACDs wider dynamic range, higher resolution, etc. ? (This will probably cause a flame storm)
SACD is intrinsically easier to convert to analogue than PCM anyway, so yes, I'd agree with you there. (Room in the flame suit for two?)
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Post by seth January 7, 2006 (4 of 30)
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mandel said:
SACD is intrinsically easier to convert to analogue than PCM anyway, so yes, I'd agree with you there. (Room in the flame suit for two?)
And I believe the Sony SACD player I mentioned does not convert to PCM (since it doesn't have bass management).
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Post by Scott January 7, 2006 (5 of 30)
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tag1_uk said:
Two semi-linked questions:
I have a four-ish year old SONY SCD-XB940 SACD player and I've got a re-occuring disc reading problem with it. It reads red book CDs and my few SACD-only dics fine, but I am finding that it reads hybrid discs with about a 60% success rate. For particular problem discs, the hybrid logo does not appear on the player's screen and at best I may be able to play the red book CD layer but normally the discs are not recognised at all. This problem is a worsening problem which I've had previously with this particular machine and which was previously repaired under warranty. The problem has now returned and seems to be getting worse. It is very upsetting. It seems to occur with discs from several labels, especially Channel Classics, Linn, Virgin, Telarc and Hyperion to name a few, even brand new discs. Has anyone experienced similar problems or have suggestions? Is it likely to be something easily fixable or is a replacement CD player in order (I am happy to replace internal components myself as I have some electronics ability, assuming I can get the spares at an economically worthwhile price)?
Have you tried something as simple as cleaning the lens on the player? You can buy an inexpensive CD/DVD lens cleaner at Best Buy and it may solve your problem. It did for me with my Sony player...
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Post by tag1_uk January 8, 2006 (6 of 30)
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Thanks for suggestions. I have already tried cleaning the lense, with the cover off. This isn't really the problem as it reads normal CDs fine. Via other threads on this site, I was pointed to the Audio Asylum website. A number of threads there refer to disc reading problems that seem to affect a large number of Sony and Philips SACD and universal (SACD/DVD etc.) players (even the ES line). One common suggestion is a design fault that causes the DSD chip to overheat, see the following URL and its follow-ups:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/219697.html
One comment I would make is that the power supply of the SCD-XB940 runs very hot (into amplifier terirory), and as there are no air vents there is every possibility that some of the circuitry inside is getting a bit hot. Anyway, I normally leave all my hifi switched on 24/7 "so that is warmed up to correct operating temperature", and after having it left switched off over night, some of the problem SACD/CD discs appear to read OK (even discs that I've never been able to read before). Why an overheating DSD decoder affects the reading ability of some hybrid SACDs and not others I know not. It is very annoying that there seems to be a design flaw in so many models, it certainly puts me off buying a Sony again.
The suggestions of buying a replacement budget SACD player and then a high-end CD-only player are fine, but if I were to replace my current SACD player, I would only want something that is better at playing SACDs than what I have currently got. I feel that the output of a budget SACD player is going to be very close to that of a high-end CD player. I'm not that impressed with the currently available budget models anyway, the vast majority of SACD players in the UK below £600 appear to be universal or multichannel players so I'd be paying for interfering circuitry that I've no intention of using as I have a completely independent video set up.
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Post by tag1_uk January 8, 2006 (7 of 30)
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Hi All,
I think I may have got my wires crossed. There seems to be some problems with Philips universal players where by an IC to do with the servo mechanism gets too hot. I am now not so sure about whether heat problems affect the Sony SACD players as well - perhaps someone else knows more? Problems like I've got seem to be more due to a flimsy laser mechanism. Further investigation of the audio asylum website led to this post which details a recalibration of the transport mechanism, by getting the SACD player to enter a workshop test mode:
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hirez&n=124289&highlight=xb940&r=&session=
I had a try of this, and I got the following error "TG high". This error was received with SACD only, CD only and hybrid discs. Does anyone know what this error means and whether that signifies anything about the longevity of my machine?
After exiting from the test procedure, the player has been working ok with all the hybrid discs I've tried so far (not many as I'm enjoying being able to listen to them after many weeks of frustration!). This might rule out a temperature problem as it should have warmed up quite a lot by now. If anyone is interested I can let you know if the problem returns....
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Post by Johnno January 8, 2006 (8 of 30)
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I also have a Sony XB940 player and began to get problems with hybrid discs. The solution has been to have the laser assembly replaced. Whether you decide that's a viable option probably depends on your opinion of the player. Without any modifications, it's no great shakes. Get any of the Vacuum State Electronics mods and it will immediately spring to life -- and the further you go with the mods, the better it will sound. I've now gone to level 5 and the sound it now produces, in either SACD or CD, is simply superb - by ANY standards.
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Post by tag1_uk January 8, 2006 (9 of 30)
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Thanks for the comment Johno. My XB940 seems to be behaving itself since I did the aformentioned realignment procedure and its been running for about 12 hours. It may be just putting off the inevitable. Is the laser assembly repair you mentioned easy enough to perform yourself, and is it possible to get the spares?
I've been thinking about the vacuum state upgrades for a while, but as the XB940 seems to have a weak transport I have always wondered what the merits are in this. [apologies, slightly off-topic] How does your modded XB940 compare to your Marantz premium stereo SACD player? Will my existing system components be up to a modded XB940? I hadn't really planned to change the rest in the medium term, maybe just the cables. I find my system has a bit of a wooly bass which I think in part is a characteristic of the amplifier, apart from that I am happy. A more revealing yet warmer more analogue sound with a tighter bass would be what I am aiming for - what kind of characteristics do the XB940 mods impart (I was just thinking of a level 4+ for now)?
Cheers.
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Post by Johnno January 9, 2006 (10 of 30)
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I did a number of transport calibrations (using a list put out by Allen Wright of VSE -- do you have it?) but, until I got the laser assembly replaced, they always tended to be short-lived -- that is, a few discs later and I'd be back with the same problem again. (Incidentally, my brother also has an XB940 and he has had his laser assembly replaced too, again successfully).
I can only now hope that I get a reasonable period of trouble-free operation from this laser assembly. So far, so good.
It's difficult to compare my two SACD players now because they are linked into quite differemt systems and when I did do a direct comparison, the latest VSE level 5 upgrade had not been carried out. At that time the Marantz had a more liquid, transparent sound with greater spaciousness and deeper, more solid bass. While obviously diffcult to make a bold statement, my feeling is that the level 5 upgrade has improved the XB940 performance markedly it every respect so that such a comparison could be quite a close call.
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